Grays_1890
Chris Jones
If the ref chooses not the use the screen then the game can't be interrupted by the 3rd official then right? Otherwise its utterly bonkers.
Based on your points games would be over two days
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The Official 2023/24 Premier League Thread
- Thread starter DeanoAustin
- Start date
If the ref chooses not the use the screen then the game can't be interrupted by the 3rd official then right? Otherwise its utterly bonkers.
Based on your points games would be over two days
mudshark
Chris Armstrong
I used to be bang in favour of VAR until I saw what a pig's ear they made of its implementation. Now I'm just sick and tired of all the delays and the fact you can't properly celebrate a goal anymore, so personally, I'd like to see it binned off altogether, but if we must be saddled with it, then I think it should only be available as a tool for the ref if and when he requests it (and then in any aspect of the game at his discretion, not just penalties). In particular, VAR should not get involved in offside decisions, except at the request of the ref. Handball IMO should only be given if it's a case of hand-to-ball, never ball-to-hand (except for the purpose of disallowing a goal if the ball ends up in the net after contact with a hand or arm). I would give each manager 4 VAR challenges, including for offside, retained if successful as in cricket.
parklane1
Tony Galvin
it was always going to be a brickcase and a lot of fans thought that when it first reared its ugly head. It causes far more problems then we had before it was brought in and its good to see that more fans are begining to see that.
K.D.D.D.D.Soc
Ian Walker
We see on here there is disagreement about incidents so how can we expect the refereeing team to reach agreement, I'd be happy with it being used for offside if the law was changed that there should be daylight between players. Offside is a crap way of defending you're relying on official to do your job.
Kandi1977
Garth Crooks
If every rule we're to be objective, we'd end up as in basketball. Contact not allowed. Because otherwise it's not possible to have an 'objective' free kick rule.
Kandi1977
Garth Crooks
Firstly because they actually (should) know the rules, and meet up before and during the season and set guidelines and what to focus on, and how this and that is to be interpreted and reffed.
K.D.D.D.D.Soc
Ian Walker
Never been on a committee then, I don't think it's possible to get over 100 men to agree on anything even if was written down in front of them.
About incidents. If there is always going to be a disagreement. Get rid of var. Saves 10 minutes a match.
Offside, ai. Instant.
(Ai can probably understand better than a human now).
Kandi1977
Garth Crooks
It's not a democracy. It will be Howard Webb who set the guidelines and standards.
But this is the problem, it's so badly implemented it's unbelievable, to your point +, you could vastly improve VAR by
- Not having it review anything automatically
- All reviews must be completed in 60 seconds or default to on field decision
- Ref can request a review if he feels he didn't see incident (foul/anything), weirdest miss for me on system right now
- Captains get the VAR challenge, agree similar to Tennis/Cricket
Handball rule is a separate clusterfudge ...
jts1882
Dean Richards
I think automatic reviews are fine as they can pick up things the referee missed, but VAR needs to be seen as a tool to help the referee rather than something to fix their mistakes. So your suggestion that the referee can ask it to review specific incidents makes sense (a strange oversight, indeed).
The timing is its biggest problem. If something is clear and obvious then it won't even need 60s. Such decisions will nearly always be correct (i.e. clear and obvious). The problem is that decisions that end up taking five minutes are not clear or obvious and are too often close judgement calls. They will be wrong up to half the time. So the calls that delay the game more will be the less reliable ones, which undermines the whole system.
I think the VAR challenge should be considered as an alternative way of running VAR, not as an extra element. Either you have a mix of referee requests and automatic reviews or a VAR challenge system. Adding it on top will just lead to more delays.
One thing I've thought about for handball is to go back to the original situation where only intentional handball gets a direct free kick. They could add an addition offence of unintentional handball and award indirect free kicks. An indirect free kick in the penalty area would still be a scoring opportunity but fairer than a penalty given for something a defender can't avoid (like having arms).
The timing is its biggest problem. If something is clear and obvious then it won't even need 60s. Such decisions will nearly always be correct (i.e. clear and obvious). The problem is that decisions that end up taking five minutes are not clear or obvious and are too often close judgement calls. They will be wrong up to half the time. So the calls that delay the game more will be the less reliable ones, which undermines the whole system.
I think the VAR challenge should be considered as an alternative way of running VAR, not as an extra element. Either you have a mix of referee requests and automatic reviews or a VAR challenge system. Adding it on top will just lead to more delays.
One thing I've thought about for handball is to go back to the original situation where only intentional handball gets a direct free kick. They could add an addition offence of unintentional handball and award indirect free kicks. An indirect free kick in the penalty area would still be a scoring opportunity but fairer than a penalty given for something a defender can't avoid (like having arms).
How can a ref request a review for something he didn't see?? 99% of the time if he didn't see it he doesn't know to ask for a review.
Also, there are times there are multiple things to look at that means it will take more than to seconds.
Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
I don't see why the ref can't just blow the whistle then go to the screen and see the replays/angles whenever they like.
tommysvr
Vedran Corluka
That’ll make things even worse. The problem as a referee is doubting what you see. Give a ref the opportunity to see something again and they’ll always freeze in the big moments.
We need to give them their authority back. The only way to do that is to back them to make the calls without being undermined, and collectively accept mistakes will happen.
We need to give them their authority back. The only way to do that is to back them to make the calls without being undermined, and collectively accept mistakes will happen.
Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
but then get to the right decision thanks to the replays
the second bit won't happen as long as there is tv coverage, we'd just be going back to where we were before VAR, which was brick
tommysvr
Vedran Corluka
We are talking about this because VAR is also brick. But it's brick with the added brick-ness of delays and never being able to celebrate a goal properly.
If the solution is for referees to self-review, what do you think happens the first time a referee decides not to, and it's shown to be a mistake? That everyone will just accept it?
tommysvr
Vedran Corluka
For me, it's simple. For the leagues where the argument is that there's so much money on the line we can't afford mistakes, use technology similar to goal line decisions for offsides and whether the ball is in or out of play. That opens up the assistant referees to do just that -- assist the referee. If they no longer have to look in 3 places at once to check for offsides and the ball being in/out, they can properly watch for fouls, diving, and other incidents.
I would extend that as far as allowing the 4th official to assist as well, with their remit being simple: you can give yellow cards for dissent. Sometimes it's hard for a referee to give those because they might feel unsure about whether the decision was correct, and therefore the dissenting player might have a point. Hand that over to a third party, and you'll quickly see dissent go down. It's the same thing that happens to coaches when the 4th official is being berated.
For the leagues without the money / grass roots etc, it's the way football was for 100 years and is now: let the referee get on with it. And mandate referee courses and experience for anyone playing football at level X or above from the age of 10. Show them how hard it is, then see how much grief they give a ref the next time they're playing.
I would extend that as far as allowing the 4th official to assist as well, with their remit being simple: you can give yellow cards for dissent. Sometimes it's hard for a referee to give those because they might feel unsure about whether the decision was correct, and therefore the dissenting player might have a point. Hand that over to a third party, and you'll quickly see dissent go down. It's the same thing that happens to coaches when the 4th official is being berated.
For the leagues without the money / grass roots etc, it's the way football was for 100 years and is now: let the referee get on with it. And mandate referee courses and experience for anyone playing football at level X or above from the age of 10. Show them how hard it is, then see how much grief they give a ref the next time they're playing.
Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
no mistakes are going to be accepted, they have to be reduced to effectively zero, that's the challenge, every other consideration is secondary
I agree with your second post, the top leagues are a different sport
tommysvr
Vedran Corluka
Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
name one industry where there isn't a constant search for improvement and a reduction in mistakes
you can't