The 'is this an example where we miss a Modric/Moutinho/Sahin type' thread

[africanspurs]

Just found a couple, he has 44 PL assists in total, Fabregas has 77. Scholes has played about 3 times as much as Fabregas . That gives you some idea of how much more potent Fabregas was.

There is no stat here here that tells me anything about the type of passes he makes. you said you found a couple , none of them are here.

you yank out this assist thing...which i find quite worrying because it means that for some reason you associate assists as a direct proportion of passing capabilities.

How do you visualise the whole thing if i may ask. where does the assist come from in your mind and where on average do you picture scholes playing on the field?

EIT:- Ahaaaaa!!!! i think we can get into each others mind sets with this .....

in your mind ..on average where do you see scholes on the pitch? positionally where do you see him on average on the pitch? defensive third? middle third? final third? deep in final third?

He has , surprise, surprise none so far this season. Hazard already has 4 , he will probably surpass Scholes in a couple of years.

hmmm, comments like this one i see brings me to the conclusion that you and i would be wasting our time discussing this. hazard is a support striker / wing foward who spends MOST of his time in the final attacking third, DEEP in it..., in the box shooting and crossing as his primary tasks

scholes supplies the passes to people like hazard........from deep...picking the passes off of the defenders and DMs and spreading the ball all over the place..

do you see where i am going? wishful thinking but hey i just thought i'd mention it one more time before i sign off on this thing

http://www.theteamofyourdreams.co.u...eam_type=points&league=1&season=&type=assists
http://www.theteamofyourdreams.co.u...eam_type=points&league=1&season=&type=assists

http://www.statbunker.com/football/ktg/index.php?PL=ktgalltime&Code=EPL&statType=assist

Like I said, he does not hurt you that much, better to let him have the ball the RVP or even Rooney

again, positional based responsibilities, primary duties , team systems..etc etc and i realise now i am fighting a hopeless cause LOL

 

[africanspurs]

before i sign off on this thing,......the main thing we were discussing about his passes and pass types?

you said there was a stat? where is it please.....i really need to see the site that claims what you said

 

[africanspurs]

You are not alone mate - I've always thought Scholes is very overrated and remember being keen to see Gerrard or Lampard given a chance for England ahead of him.

so you agree with him that he cant pass , or his passes dont trouble opposition and he mainly plays short sideways passes?

cause i am not sure what being overrated a s player has to do with the topic we are discussing ...which is what you're replying to saying "you're not alone"

 

[Jurgen the German]

What about chances created? A kind of forgotten stat. Bet Scholes ranks high in that department.

When you have players like Xavi and Zidane calling you the best midfielder of a generation, you really can't get any higher praise than that.

The only thing I don't like about Scholes is his dirtiness. He gets away with some outrageous tackles for a number of reasons:

He plays for Man Utd
He is a great player
He is English

And yet people still trot out the tired "can't tackle" cliche. Would love to hear just one pundit call him dirty.

 

[africanspurs]

Alonso is a DM and always has been . Thudd, well yes he is world class, I reckon we could get about £35m for him, or maybe even get Stoke to take him for a season.

Modric does not get enough assists , but is a much better player than Scholes.

you're clearly missing my point and you will continue to no matter what i say based on comments of yours in this thread

but positionally these players have similar traits..the position they occupy on the field isnt that far apart on average though perhaps scholes in a higher faster tempo game where united push the opposition he may take some yards forward in his average positioning.......and xabi alonso is a playmaker btw who is both good and has more defensive responsibilities . which is why in his teams he plays next to an actual defensive midfielder thats there to win the ball

but like i said, i dont think you will agree with me and i dont really expect you to


again about this modric thing being a 'better player' you're going to have to side line that for now...or forever actually cause i can see we dont see eye to eye on this....but being a better player isnt what we are talking about..we are talking about his passes. and i'll tell you this now...scholes is a better passer than modric

 

[africanspurs]

Thank you, add in his cripple type tackles, one of these overrated in hindsight.

Yet my post to the same point in another thread was deemed "stupidest thing someone had ever seen on this forum" (which btw, probably meant they had spent all of a day on this board).

am actually more surprised that you are posting this stuff and agreeing with it more than the stuff itself LOL

 

[milo]

He was nearly always pretty cr ap for England and outshone by foreign players.

I disagree massively, he was just about England's best player under Hoddle and his international record is very good. He faded for England in the two years before he retired but as others have said, that is largely because he was played out of position.

 

[colin fishwick]

okay right, i would still like to see that stat. cause like i said i dont believe it, and you have to also put it together with what he does overall...cause if someone plays the most passes in the world chances are that his tally of every category will mount up to more than more players. the key is the proportion of passing types more than anything

and once again, i dont understand what assists have to do with what you are inferring about him only passing square and near and rarely playing venturing passes. treat me like a 2 year old and hand hold me through the whole thing....scholes has less assists which means what about passing to the player 50 yards on the wing who supplies the cross that gets the assist. what is it about being the key supplier to the assister that makes his lack of assists show that he cant provide those passes to the assisters?




it really wasnt in the last couple of years , it was since he got moved into the support striker and then midfield maestro positions that he really came into his own. he was world class then, you know...a key figure in a team that has won the CL...TWICE. if you dont have te right to lobby for world class after that then i dont know what



didnt they play him on the left for england? not to mention that in general the WHOLE england team is crap when they get together. i take it then that all english players are crap?



this bit could be unnecessarily debated. could you please clarify what exactly he is made out to be?



i can agree with this. but its english thing. think it meant that it was the most talented generation for quite a while?




goal posts are shifting slightly now...are we still talking about his passes, the type of passes he makes and the influence he has on a game? or are we talking about all round on the ball skills which isnt what you started out saying in the first place...you know the whole "5 yards square and backwards and RARELY plays forward balls" etc. cause i'm trying not to get into an unnecessary debate about people skills sets and their validity on being in a top class category based on their key tasks in a given system. paul scholes being a deep lying orchestrator with passing ability like he does..does not need to do step over and carry the ball.....like modric, or he doesnt need to venture forward when he has defensive responsibilities more than those that play furthest forward in a midfield 5...like cesc. Scholes has his job and if he does it well then he is a good player.

its almost like saying that maldini was not world class cause he didnt have the skill set of zidane. one person has a job to do and how they do it is irrelevant as long as it gets done.
i'll tell you this now , if modric could pick a pass like scholes can he wouldn't need to be carrying the ball to the zones to make life easier for himself



he used to score when he was younger and playing a more dynamic style in a further forward position.....as a support striker or attacking midfielder...its a positional issue...if you arent in those positions on average then you will not have the higher probability or opportunities to score



i dont remember it like that tbh

Some sideways passing stats



http://fourfourtwo.com/blogs/statsz...ys-ba-looking-sheepish-spurs-big-mistake.aspx

http://thepowerofgoals.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/individual-premiership-passing-stats.html

http://www.eplindex.com/16614/top-target-joe-allen-statistically-compared-rivals.html

Just for starters they all same the same thing and back up my point. Sideways , less potent and much easier.

The last link is very interesting.

 

[colin fishwick]

you're clearly missing my point and you will continue to no matter what i say based on comments of yours in this thread

but positionally these players have similar traits..the position they occupy on the field isnt that far apart on average though perhaps scholes in a higher faster tempo game where united push the opposition he may take some yards forward in his average positioning.......and xabi alonso is a playmaker btw who is both good and has more defensive responsibilities . which is why in his teams he plays next to an actual defensive midfielder thats there to win the ball

but like i said, i dont think you will agree with me and i dont really expect you to


again about this modric thing being a 'better player' you're going to have to side line that for now...or forever actually cause i can see we dont see eye to eye on this....but being a better player isnt what we are talking about..we are talking about his passes. and i'll tell you this now...scholes is a better passer than modric

Please look at the links I provided. Scholes plays the easy sideways pass, Modric has more to his game than passing, but even on that he is more potent.

 

[milo]

Please look at the links I provided. Scholes plays the easy sideways pass, Modric has more to his game than passing, but even on that he is more potent.

I disagree, Scholes in his prime was a very positive player but for the sake of argument, what is wrong with a sideways pass that retains possession?

If he was as negative as you claim, how do you explain Scholes very good goal scoring record during his prime?

 

[africanspurs]

Please look at the links I provided. Scholes plays the easy sideways pass, Modric has more to his game than passing, but even on that he is more potent.

whoa whoa whoa

i thought the epl index for opposition left and opposition right is about spreading the play to the wings on the left and right?

where did you get easy sideways passes from? those mean opposition right side and opposition left side

and of all his passes ONLY 8% go backwards in the opposition half.

the first two links, thanks btw as i know its can be a mission to get these online and you clearly took the time to get the information on my requuest, dont really say much

the first one shows scholes as a deep lying co-ordinator on a team that prides itself on wing play and expansive football..so natural he will he passing to the wings and he'll do that from deep

as for the second link..i dont know what that shows tbh, nothing there disputes the quality of scholes' passing.
i saw danny rose in there too, had a slight grin on that

 

[colin fishwick]

I disagree, Scholes in his prime was a very positive player but for the sake of argument, what is wrong with a sideways pass that retains possession?

If he was as negative as you claim, how do you explain Scholes very good goal scoring record during his prime?

Nothing is wrong with the sideways pass pursue , but you need players to do more , obviously .

The point I have been making, is that Scholes has good passing accuracy stats and is hailed as a great passer This is misleading .

There is a degree of difficulty element and when this is taken into account , his passing stats are not among the best.

It is obviously easier to do a sideways pass to an unmarked player, than to try something else.

He did have a good scoring record when he was younger, I am not arguing with that.

 

[colin fishwick]

whoa whoa whoa

i thought the epl index for opposition left and opposition right is about spreading the play to the wings on the left and right?

where did you get easy sideways passes from? those mean opposition right side and opposition left side

and of all his passes ONLY 8% go backwards in the opposition half.

the first two links, thanks btw as i know its can be a mission to get these online and you clearly took the time to get the information on my requuest, dont really say much

the first one shows scholes as a deep lying co-ordinator on a team that prides itself on wing play and expansive football..so natural he will he passing to the wings and he'll do that from deep

as for the second link..i dont know what that shows tbh, nothing there disputes the quality of scholes' passing.
i saw danny rose in there too, had a slight grin on that

It is easier to pass the ball in deep positions. Defenders have the best passing stats, because they are under pressure less. So a deep lying midfielder will have the same benefit, often the he is passing to unmarked player, sometimes in fact most times, just 5 yards square.

The last link, shows he passes forward the least of the other players. Modric for example passes forward more and also creates a lot more chances.

 

[kanoute16]

Modric didn't help when real madrid did exactly the same thing to us two years ago.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Modric didn't help when real madrid did exactly the same thing to us two years ago.

Can that really be used as a fair example, seeing as we played with 10 men for most of that game??

Granted, one could use other examples like the two 5-2 collapses (OT and the Emirates); although those were under different management and instructions

 

[diego_maradona]

Colin I am astounded at your comments. But the I remember I thought the same when reading your Huddlestone thread posts. To suggest Scholes is poor, Modric is better is incredible. The guy has been an absolutely magnificent footballer for many many seasons and that's fairly evident to the majority of football fans. Like I said, staggering comments

 

[diego_maradona]

Personally we chose to play a certain way in the end, which was fine but the trio of Lennon, Bale and Defoe needed to be able to do more once it came forward. For a good counter attacking side like ourselves we should have been able to pick them apart when breaking, instead we had poor choices out of defence and often lumped it or gave it away easy.

I think back to the likes of united themselves when they had Ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney playing against the likes of Arsenal in the CL, and they were simply devastating on the counter. Quality players demanding the ball and determined to make the most of every break to relly hurt the opposition.

 

[DHSF]

Personally we chose to play a certain way in the end, which was fine but the trio of Lennon, Bale and Defoe needed to be able to do more once it came forward. For a good counter attacking side like ourselves we should have been able to pick them apart when breaking, instead we had poor choices out of defence and often lumped it or gave it away easy.

I think back to the likes of united themselves when they had Ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney playing against the likes of Arsenal in the CL, and they were simply devastating on the counter. Quality players demanding the ball and determined to make the most of every break to relly hurt the opposition.

I dont think they could have done much. We were defending so so deep and Manure were just camped in the last third. Whenever we had the ball we just cleared it if we tried to pass about Manure would have pounced on that and could have cost us a goal or two.

I also think we looked scared and nervy... had we kept it at 3-1 for longer than five seconds I think we could have got four or five I really do think that.

 

[colin fishwick]

Colin I am astounded at your comments. But the I remember I thought the same when reading your Huddlestone thread posts. To suggest Scholes is poor, Modric is better is incredible. The guy has been an absolutely magnificent footballer for many many seasons and that's fairly evident to the majority of football fans. Like I said, staggering comments

Why exaggerate my points.? I did not say he was poor. It is hardly incredible to say Modric is better.

It is incredible that he only has 44 PL assists in his entire PL career and if you are honest, you will admit that is surprising.

Who do you think is better Fabregas or Scholes ?

 

[glorygloryeze]

I dont think they could have done much. We were defending so so deep and Manure were just camped in the last third. Whenever we had the ball we just cleared it if we tried to pass about Manure would have pounced on that and could have cost us a goal or two.

I also think we looked scared and nervy... had we kept it at 3-1 for longer than five seconds I think we could have got four or five I really do think that.

I agree, I was nervous just listening on the radio after we conceded straight after Dempsey made it 3-1. A large milestone off our back and hopefully if/when we are in a similar position again this season (Stamford Bridge perhaps??[-o&lt we will be much more calm and less nervous.

Manure really did treat us like their bitches though; imagine anyone else in the top 4 starting such a semi-geriatric team against us. Their will and determination is amazing, but if they are still in with a shout of the title by the last two weekends of the season with their midfield then the PL really is a joke. Benitez, Mancini and now AVB have showed in recent years that if you either close them down in the middle quickly, force them to hoof it long, or explote the space in behind/force them to paly very deep Manure are relatively easy to nullify these days (compared to the early part of this century)