The Goon Thread

[SpurMeUp]

If there was evidence posted on social media like there is with Partey and there was with Greenwood etc. then you'd have to be mental to sit back, do nothing and just say "well, innocent til proven guilty innit".

But yeah, if it's just an accusation, player denies, and there's no evidence available then I would assume you might take their word until further information becomes available.

Remember, Everton suspended Sigurdsson straightaway and he never played for them again... and that took a long time to go to court.

So you draw the line at social media? If an accusation is made on SM then that is the barometer you use to take action. What if the player denies it? You then disregard all accusations. Doesn’t seem workable.

You’re essentially asking companies to act like a police force interviewing people, a jury - making a judgement on their guilt - and a judge choosing what action to take next.

The issue here isn’t a broken legal premise. It is that it takes so long to convict people. No one seems in the slightest concerned that victims of serious crimes are forced to see their perpetrators walk around free for many many years whilst they wait.

A club or a business should not be tasked with doing the legal systems job. We need such cases to be tried far quicker and guilt or innocence proven.

 

[kb 1984]

A company is not in control of the CPS. That it takes so many years to get justice is the issue here. What about victims who have to wait so long to get closure? This is the issue for me.

If you are suggesting we should ban players based on accusations, how would you stop rival fans writing a false letter of accusation to undermine us?

Agreed about the wait but that doesn't mean we shouldn't believe the victims

Not stopping players from training or earning money what they can't do is play football. It's up to the police to investigate all accusations then charge or not whatever the case maybe. As for writing a letter the police would require an interview with victim to even consider going forward the police aren't stupid.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Agreed about the wait but that doesn't mean we shouldn't believe the victims

Not stopping players from training or earning money what they can't do is play football. It's up to the police to investigate all accusations then charge or not whatever the case maybe. As for writing a letter the police would require an interview with victim to even consider going forward the police aren't stupid.

So what are you suggesting? In lieu of the authorities acting you’d want the club to interview victims?

 

[kb 1984]

So what are you suggesting? In lieu of the authorities acting you’d want the club to interview victims?

Absolutely not club contact police police investigate. I thought letter was sent to police not club

 

[tommysvr]

The numbers of false reports of rape that goes as far as a person being charged are far outweighed by the number of rapists who get away with it because it’s a difficult crime to prove, and in general it’s easier to just not bother.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

With allegations this serious, from 3 different women, with an investigation that has been taking place for nearly 4 years, he should be nowhere near the first team imho. The PL's big campaign at the moment? Ironically "Tackling violence against women and girls."

I agree that they can't sack him unless he is convicted, but Arsenal are an international brand with a top class women's football team too and can choose to let him play or not while he is under investigation. I'm sure the way this has been handled is going to hurt the club as I doubt they will have heard the last of it.

As if there were not already enough reasons to dislike Arteta and that club.

I agree it's a pr problem for them, but this is professional sport and morals and ethics count for nothing, fans and media ignore whatever suits them.

 

[Robspur12]

Okay let’s try a thought experiment. Tomorrow someone issues an accusation against any of our players. Let’s say it is Lucas Bergvall. You would simply suspend him and wait the 3+ years for the CPS to check and build their case, would you? And the further time it would take to go to court? What if it wasn’t taken to court at the end of the investigation?

Given the allegations Yes. Emirates Marketing Project did it with Mendy didn't they and Everton with Siggurdson. For 2 reasons mainly 1) it's the right thing to do 2) the reputational damage from not doing so would be huge.

 

[Baleforce]

Given the allegations Yes. Emirates Marketing Project did it with Mendy didn't they and Everton with Siggurdson. For 2 reasons mainly 1) it's the right thing to do 2) the reputational damage from not doing so would be huge.

I’d be very surprised if there wasn’t a key legal distinction between the cases where clubs have moved so quickly.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

Okay let’s try a thought experiment. Tomorrow someone issues an accusation against any of our players. Let’s say it is Lucas Bergvall. You would simply suspend him and wait the 3+ years for the CPS to check and build their case, would you? And the further time it would take to go to court? What if it wasn’t taken to court at the end of the investigation?

At the point of accusation? Probably not.
At the point of arrest for suspicion of? Yes.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Given the allegations Yes.

What are the accusations?

Emirates Marketing Project did it with Mendy didn't they and Everton with Siggurdson. For 2 reasons mainly 1) it's the right thing to do 2) the reputational damage from not doing so would be huge.

You’re affectively asking society to replace the institutions you followed as a police officer with trail by public opinion. Or worse one person - a CEO.

Didn’t Mendy take them to court for lost earnings when he was acquitted?

As outlined, what we need is a justice system that takes action far faster, either prosecuting or acquiring people.

Otherwise there will always be edge cases and someone unqualified, without all the evidence available, or any public scrutiny, acting in lieu of our justice system. You don’t want that do you?

 

[SpurMeUp]

At the point of accusation? Probably not.
At the point of arrest for suspicion of? Yes.

Isn’t that consistent with Venkatesham actions too.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

Isn’t that consistent with Venkatesham actions too.

The arrest was in July 2022, the accusation(s) being a few months earlier.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

At the point of accusation? Probably not.
At the point of arrest for suspicion of? Yes.

I think this could be the difference when comparing cases.
The point a club draws the line and withdraws player from playing may differ, it may not.
Under suspicion, allegations, under investigation, arrested, charges issued.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

What are the accusations?

Emirates Marketing Project did it with Mendy didn't they and Everton with Siggurdson. For 2 reasons mainly 1) it's the right thing to do 2) the reputational damage from not doing so would be huge.

You’re affectively asking society to replace the institutions you followed as a police officer with trail by public opinion. Or worse one person - a CEO.

Didn’t Mendy take them to court for lost earnings when he was acquitted?

As outlined, what we need is a justice system that takes action far faster, either prosecuting or acquiring people.

Otherwise there will always be edge cases and someone unqualified, without all the evidence available, or any public scrutiny, acting in lieu of our justice system. You don’t want that do you?

I think Mendy was suspended when he was charged, so in Arsenals case (if he was still a Goon player) that would have been this week for it to be the same.

 

[SpurMeUp]

The arrest was in July 2022, the accusation(s) being a few months earlier.

Fair enough. My issue is with the CPS not our CEO. It puts clubs, player and victims in an impossible situation if the authorities wait 3 years to act or take no further action.

In a theoretical case, imagine you put Bergvall on suspension and then the judge threw out the case on the first day of court. But he was now 23 and hadn’t played competitive football for years. I can’t see how replacing a justice system with CEO judgment + social media opinion is in any way workable.

 

[kb 1984]

Fair enough. My issue is with the CPS not our CEO. It puts clubs, player and victims in an impossible situation if the authorities wait 3 years to act or take no further action.

In a theoretical case, imagine you put Bergvall on suspension and then the judge threw out the case on the first day of court. But he was now 23 and hadn’t played competitive football for years. I can’t see how replacing a justice system with CEO judgment + social media opinion is in any way workable.

If a footballer is accused of rape whoever he is whoever he plays for gets stood down. It's as simple as that. If it takes 3 years so be it. It's rape man come on

In your scenario bergval is innocent what if he is guilty & been running around in a Tottenham shirt representing you. You would be happy with this

 

[SpurMeUp]

If a footballer is accused of *struggle cuddle* whoever he is whoever he plays for gets stood down. It's as simple as that. If it takes 3 years so be it. It's *struggle cuddle* man come on

In your scenario bergval is innocent what if he is guilty & been running around in a Tottenham shirt representing you. You would be happy with this

Wow. You’d end careers on the basis of any accusation. That is mad. Anyone wishing to cause you harm could write a letter and end your career. How is that workable?

 

[Robspur12]

What are the accusations?

Emirates Marketing Project did it with Mendy didn't they and Everton with Siggurdson. For 2 reasons mainly 1) it's the right thing to do 2) the reputational damage from not doing so would be huge.

You’re affectively asking society to replace the institutions you followed as a police officer with trail by public opinion. Or worse one person - a CEO.

Didn’t Mendy take them to court for lost earnings when he was acquitted?

As outlined, what we need is a justice system that takes action far faster, either prosecuting or acquiring people.

Otherwise there will always be edge cases and someone unqualified, without all the evidence available, or any public scrutiny, acting in lieu of our justice system. You don’t want that do you?

I don't disagree with the principle of innocent until proven guilty. But I agree with @Glenda's Legs response above. In many jobs you are precluded from working if you are under investigation for a serious crime.

 

[Muttley]

What an awful comment

Not at all. We know these rich and famous role models have always found ways to cover their misdemeanours using their financial muscle.

That is not even a statement of whether Partey is guilty or not guilty. All I'm saying is that he will be spending way more than the average Joe on his case and have a much higher percentage chance to getting the verdict he wants.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I don't disagree with the principle of innocent until proven guilty. See @Glenda's Legs response above. In many jobs you are precluded from working if you are under investigation for a serious crime.

It is black and white isn’t it. You either believe in innocent until proven guilty or you don’t. What we need is a justice system that acts far quicker on these kinds of cases. Venkatesham shouldn’t be blamed for the CPS’ underfunding or incompetence.