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The Goon Thread
- Thread starter Jordinho
- Start date
The failed championship manager (As I described him last season when Suarez FC were flying high) will go first. Wenger will never be sacked by them lot due to 1997-2002 happening which is great news for us IMO.
fixed.
in all seriousness, rodgers has to be significantly more likelier to get sacked than wenger. its pretty obvious that Kroenke is very happy with arsenal being run as a generally profitable/breakeven business. as long as the on pitch results do not deteriorate so much that the valuation of the business is damaged, kroenke will be satisfied imo. its very difficult to get a manager who will be willing to run a club in this manner. how many times has a manager blamed the board for lack of funds etc? happens all the time. in the case of mancini at city, he blamed a loss of a title on the fact that Emirates Marketing Project didnt do enough to buy robin van persie, despite the fact that he had pretty much every other transfer target given to him. martin o'neill did the same at aston vila, completely disregarding how much randy learner had spent on players. o'neil even went onto publically blame learner for aston vila's lack of ambition when learner had lost hundreds of millions of pounds.
wenger absorbs all the flack that the board would otherwise get from the fans. and is seemingly happy enough to do so. even now, he takes all the blame for "poor" performances (bad tactics etc). the reality is that they arent as good as the teams above them because they simply dont spend as much. and if the arsenal fans realise this, all the pressure and blame that wenger is getting will be directed at kroenke. basically, wenger is exactly the type of manager kroenke wants. when wenger goes, i suspect the arsenal board will look for someone with basically the same philosophies as wenger. or, they will employ a manager who is relatively obscure and impose financial restrictions on him so that they still remain marginally profitable/breakeven. managers like mourinho wont want the arsenal job. from a sporting perspective its rubbish compared to a job like chelsea. the public demands of the arsenal and chelsea jobs are relatively similar, but the resources given in the chelsea job are infinitely bigger. for someone like mourinho, taking the arsenal job will be very bad for his career. he is known to be a "winner" wherever he goes, but at arsenal he wont win much/if anything. not because he is necessarily a bad manager, but theres just not enough money at arsenal to be truly competitive at the very top level.
rodgers isnt likely to get sacked anytime soon either though imo. the owners dont know enough about football to realise that rodgers isnt very good. all they know is that hes acheived signifantly better results than dalglish, and thats probably good enough for them (for now). I think the liverpool owners will go the way of randy learner in time. they will realise that its almost impossible to run a club like liverpool profitably because getting into the top 4 is too rare and expensive. and will therefore reduce spending, and eventually look to sell up.
i dont think some of our fans know how lucky we are to have someone like levy who seems to fully understand the task at hand, and has a great knowledge of football. if we are to break into the top 4, it will be with levy. from a football perspective, its a shame that people like levy and wenger get so much stick. these guys build a team within the constraints of the resources available to them. they do this carefully, always looking to add value. not giving into short-termism and fan pressure to make the wrong decisions.
markysimmo
Johnny nice-tits
Karma
Neymar - there is one thing i don't quite grasp with your logic (many things i disagree with but understand your thinking at least) - you say Arsenal can't do any better (or worse) because of their bank balance V the sides above/below them - so im not sure why you still champion Wenger, by that logic it seems immaterial who is in charge of the team and that Wenger isn't doing anything great by having them where they are. I can respect the opinion of him being lauded for getting them in and through the new stadium but now they are closer to City and Chelsea financially than those below but are further away than ever before - surely that gap can't continue to widen on the pitch when it's closing off of it?
purely in terms of being a first team football coach, his influence is minimal. he may be better or worse than the average manager, but we'll never truly know. the thing that makes him great is that he is a football coach as well as being a director of football and doing levy's job too. he has the skillset to do all three roles simultaneosly. arsenal are where they are because of wengers overall club management. the teams just behind them (us and liverpool) are a number of years away if we are to overtake them. in our case, thats nothing really special, because we were always a distance away from them. but the gap wenger has created with liverpool is truly amazing. fwiw, the gap that levy has closed down with not only arsenal, but the rest of the top of the league is also just as amazing. neither men get the credit they deserve for this.
you dont win football matches long term through great tactical nouse or any other bs like that. you win by simply spending more than your rivals. and the trick that levy and wenger have done over the years is that they have got their clubs spending levels at a number of tiers above where they otherwise would have been. the polar opposite is harry redknapp. hes the kind of manager that might appease the fans short term by filling what seems like obvious gaps in the team. but by the end of his reign, the club could be left in a much worse financial state. and long term, that his very bad for the club.
this is why levy and wenger get so much stick from their fans for not solving what seems to be "obvious problems". but these guys understand football and know that theres no real need to overspend to fix short term problems, because 1) these problems are usually not as bad as fans think, and 2) the only way a self-sustaining club can grow organically is to constantly find value in the players they recruit.
and example of this at arsenal is their lack of cb's. and monreal having to cover. from what i can see, hes actually played ok-ish. but every time he makes a micro mistake, hes pointed out by fans and pundits for not being a natural centre back. and this perpetuates the myth that an actual centre back would have played significantly better than him. this is simply not true. there are a lot more centre backs at top 4 clubs that have been worse than monreal. lovren, smalling, blackett, mangala, and dare i say some of our centre backs too. in addition, chelsea have started the season with the same number of senior centre backs, but less defenders overall. why isnt anyone giving mourinho stick? it just shows football fans chat a lot of crap.
also, the same applies for their supposed lack of a "real" defensive midfielder. they can sign a £30m defensive midfielder all they want. it wont solve much. they will still be roughly 4th. because the likes of giroud, welbeck, walcott, cazorla, ozil etc arent as good as silva, yaya, aguero, dzeko etc. nor are they as good as costa, fabregas, oscar, willian, matic etc. but, they are probably better than the likes of paulinho. if they want to challenge at a higher level, a better defensive midfielder is probably needed, but so is a replacement to giroud, wlacott, welbeck, podolski, mertesacker etc etc etc. therefore, there is no point in overspending for a defensive midfielder just to appease the fans short term.
its making decisions like this that helps the club to grow long term. and wenger and levy have been doing this for years now. managers like martin o'neill or redknapp would no doubt have brought in an expensive cb and dcm if they were arsenal managers. when the club doesnt progress like the fans expected, they would probably put public pressure on the board to spend even more. basically until they match the spending of abramovic/mansour. and they would come out with negative crap and dismiss title chances like sherwood did when he publically laughed off the suggestion of a top 4 finish. that did no-one at tottenham any good apart from sherwood himself. wenger never does crap like that. and thats one of the many reasons he is a chairman's dream manager. theres a reason our very own sir alan sugar is so willing to publically defend arsene wenger. the man is a true footballing genius, and even our rivalry shouldnt distract from that fact.
jts1882
Dean Richards
Good point. Arsenal are also the only one of the "Sky Four" not to finish outside the top four. Given the financial advantage of the top three he can only be expected to do better than some of them so often. By the same token you'd expect some lower teams to do better than Arsenal sometimes. Wenger has kept them at or above their par position.
Similarly with Spurs. Since Jol we have generally performed above our par position (based on wages). We were as low as 8th/9th in the period when West Ham, Villa and Portsmouth were paying higher wages than us. I suppose, based on such arguments, Levy should be criticised for being trigger happy on managers who don't overachieve.
:ross: :ross: :ross:
Why is this guy not classified as a troll?
Not that I want to feed him, but I feel I should add some sort of actual response: if they could grind out results against the big teams when playing poorly, which requires a defence, they would have won the league comfortably last season. And probably a bunch of other trophies since 2005.
To say that Arsenal have not suffered from the way they play implies that they could not have improved on their performances, which is utter b0ll0x. I think both halves of north London would agree on that.
WTF???
Since when was success in football measured by mid-term consistency? Is this thread a joke? There is no glory or pride in coming 4th every year. I would much prefer to be a United, Liverpool, or Chelsea fan and undergone periods of ****e if that meant trophies.
All three of those clubs have won the CL. When their fans are on each of their respective deathbeds, I hardly think that they are going to nostalgically remember all those times they qualified for the CL back-to-back, or regret the times they slipped out of the top 5. No, they are going to remember Istanbul, Moscow and Munich.
There is no pride in stagnation. Sometimes you have to risk the mid-term success of your team to achieve short-term goals that will be immortalised in club legend. Wenger has steadfastly resisted this and has robbed his fans of several of these moments.
I suppose the same criticism could be leveled at Levy, although its not like we were ever 1 step away from a title. I would like to think that if we qualified for the CL 2 or 3 years running, that he would go full tilt to bring home a title and truly re-establish Spurs as a global brand.
There is something to be said for Wenger's consistency, he has done a good job in qualifying for the CL so regularly, but I feel that it actively hinders Arsenal's ability to win titles.
because im not a troll.
maybe they are expected to win a few more trophies since 2005 given their resources. but as we all know, cup competitions have a massive element of luck. arsenal have reached numberous finals and semi finals since 2005. had the ball spun another way, or the referee had made a mistake etc, they could have won a few more cups. liverpool won their most recent champions league with a massive dose of luck for example. to make concrete judgements on wenger based on cup results would be beyond idiotic.
And are you for real regarding the league last season for arsenal? just like that, if they had a "defense", they would have won the league comfortably would they? that easy? lol
i have never said arsenal have not suffered from the way they play. nor have i said that they could not have improved on their performances. infact i've said exactly the opposite on multiple occasions if i remember correctly.
maybe there is something to be said about gambling with the clubs long term future for short term results. and sometimes maybe there is an argument to get rid of a manager doing well as it gives something fresh for the fans to look forward to. a la curbishley at charlton. even if the club doesnt progress, as in the case of charlton, i think the up and down ride that the fans get is perhaps something they need. thats the problem with wenger/arsenal. they are too good. theres no sense of being on a rollercoaster with supporting arsenal. comapre them with liverpool; liverpool on a very season finish in the top 4 (basically what arsenal do every year). but on a bad year, they can finish as low as mid table. and then this gives the fans something to look forward to: the top 4 challenge. it gives a sense of progression. this is what arsenal dont have. basically because wenger is too good, and the clubs above arsenal are too rich (so cant be caught).
And no ****, if you want trophies, you would rather be a fan of utd, or chelsea. they are richer and so will naturally be more competitive in the fight for trophies. i wouldnt want to be a liverpool fan though. i strongly beleive their trophies in recent years were won based on runs of good fortune rather than them being any better than arsenal.
Are we not going to remember the night gareth bale tore maicon a new one? are we not going remember our night against milan in the san siro? im sure arsenal fans will remember the nights they went to inter milan and destroyed them 5-1. or the night that thierry henry drove through the real madrid team and secured a 1-0 win over them at the bernabeu. or more recently, the time they beat a barca side in their pomp at the emirates. if football is simply about winning the top honors for you, why dont you go and support chelsea? are you suggesting that the rest of the football league has acheived nothing worth while? following a football team is about far more than just winnign the champions league for me. and ill have many nostalgic memories from following tottenham even in years when we won nothing.
easy for fans to say that theres "no pride in stagnation". its not their hundreds of millions that will be required to get themselves out of "stagnation".
wenger has given them arguably the best team the league has ever seen. and gone a whole season unbeaten. that team has been immortalised as "the invincibles" by their fans. to suggest that he has "robbed" them of anything is ludicrous. unfortunately the modern fan has a massive problem with his sense of entitlement.
you have highlighted the short-termism that i think levy and wenger are so great at avoiding/ignoring. ultimately, for the long term benefit and growth of their clubs.
I think the one that will really stick in everyone's mind is 0 shots against Barca. Not even an attempt.
greatwhitenorf
Edgar Davids
League Cup semi, 5-1 Spurs at the Lane. Adebayor and Bentknob start slapping each other during the match. League Cup final, 2-1 Birmingham City. Un-Civil war in their Arsenal stands.
They don't even have to lose to have a memorable result. Any of their crushing moral defeats - 3-3 v. Anderlecht, 4-4 v. Spurs or Saudi Sportswashing Machine - will do nicely.
Can't wait til one of their perpetually irate fans decides it isn't enough any more writing plaintive essays on the web or bleating into youtube video cameras or cowardly chucking cheap plonk at the visitors bench. Takes a page from the Barcelona playbook and chucks a corgi's head onto the Emirates pitch.
They don't even have to lose to have a memorable result. Any of their crushing moral defeats - 3-3 v. Anderlecht, 4-4 v. Spurs or Saudi Sportswashing Machine - will do nicely.
Can't wait til one of their perpetually irate fans decides it isn't enough any more writing plaintive essays on the web or bleating into youtube video cameras or cowardly chucking cheap plonk at the visitors bench. Takes a page from the Barcelona playbook and chucks a corgi's head onto the Emirates pitch.
markysimmo
Johnny nice-tits
Poor old Wheelchair, massive **** gets everything he deserves !!!
markysimmo
Johnny nice-tits
How bad must "he scores when he wants" Podolski be if he can't even get into the team ahead of Sanogo
Bullet
Colin Calderwood
It was interesting watching Eng U21 vs Fra U21 because Kane finished 2 in 2 minutes, very nice, not the most mobile... whereas France were very mobile and rangey, typical African athleticism charging up and down the pitch and swarming our defence until they scored. Yanogo got 2 and neither was particularly difficult but his movement, speed, distance, work rate was impressive compared to Kane and Pritchard up the other end.
Armenia Spur
Steven Caulker
3 months out for Jack Wheelchair, the professional hospital patient whose career has been blighted by appearances for Arsenal.