The Current State of Spurs (and some sympathy for Thomas Frank)

[Muttley]

Yes the club has problems, but we have to ask, having the players at hand we do are we playing as well as we should can, and does our league position represent the quality of our squad. The answer to all of that is NO. Bad team choices, poor tactics, and a feeling the payers are totally disorganised and certainly not motivated. I haven't given up on Frank yet, but have massive reservations. My gut feeling is that we will bring in a few expensive signings in January and it will make no difference. My prediction is that we will finish around 14th with a top five side

Yeah, agree with most of what you say. I don't think we're totally disorganised though. I saw moments under Ange where we looked scarily that but clearly weren't. I think it's more a case that the manager is giving the players some organising principles but they are struggling to adhere to them. At worst, those organising principles aren't working against the opposition tactics, like we saw a lot with Ange.

I do put a lot of this down to the midfield areas of the pitch, both central and wide. I read for 2 seasons that we needed a Palhinha type player i.e. a player that is intelligent, can communicate with other players, get them organised positionally and create a better collective protective shield. I think what we're finding out is something different.

I'll take those 2 expensive signings and I'll happily welcome Dom and Kulu back into the fold. I'll also happily see some key exits in January, We need to keep moving.

 

[Bishop]

Yeah, agree with most of what you say. I don't think we're totally disorganised though. I saw moments under Ange where we looked scarily that but clearly weren't. I think it's more a case that the manager is giving the players some organising principles but they are struggling to adhere to them. At worst, those organising principles aren't working against the opposition tactics, like we saw a lot with Ange.

I do put a lot of this down to the midfield areas of the pitch, both central and wide. I read for 2 seasons that we needed a Palhinha type player i.e. a player that is intelligent, can communicate with other players, get them organised positionally and create a better collective protective shield. I think what we're finding out is something different.

I'll take those 2 expensive signings and I'll happily welcome Dom and Kulu back into the fold. I'll also happily see some key exits in January, We need to keep moving.

I disagree with you slightly here. Palhinha isn’t really the type of player those who wanted a DM were advocating for. Pal is very much a pure destroyer, whereas many wanted a deep passer/controller hybrid or an energetic harrier/harasser with good on-the-ball abilities. So you’re thinking more a Wharton, Caicedo, Rice, Gomes — hell, even Xhaka — type, I'll even whisper a Bissouma with his head screwed on.

I’m not surprised that Palhinha creates as many problems as he solves due to his very specific skill set. To play someone like him in a progressive side, or at least one attempting to be this, you have to overcompensate with the on-the-ball abilities of whoever is near him. We haven’t done that, so we are suffering largely from his limitations. A really obvious statement to make, I know, but it’s the reason it didn’t work out for him at Bayern: they needed more than a pure destroyer, and thus it's why he got fewer and fewer minutes once his limitations became obvious.

I think in a backs-to-the-wall, consistently deep-blocked setup, paired with a rangy long passer and direct countering pace on the wings, he’d look fine and in his element. But as we’re clearly not that kind of side, it just doesn’t work.

 

[Muttley]

I disagree with you slightly here. Palhinha isn’t really the type of player those who wanted a DM were advocating for. Pal is very much a pure destroyer, whereas many wanted a deep passer/controller hybrid or an energetic harrier/harasser with good on-the-ball abilities. So you’re thinking more a Wharton, Caicedo, Rice, Gomes — hell, even Xhaka — type, I'll even whisper a Bissouma with his head screwed on.

I’m not surprised that Palhinha creates as many problems as he solves due to his very specific skill set. To play someone like him in a progressive side, or at least one attempting to be this, you have to overcompensate with the on-the-ball abilities of whoever is near him. We haven’t done that, so we are suffering largely from his limitations. A really obvious statement to make, I know, but it’s the reason it didn’t work out for him at Bayern: they needed more than a pure destroyer, and thus it's why he got fewer and fewer minutes once his limitations became obvious.

I think in a backs-to-the-wall, consistently deep-blocked setup, paired with a rangy long passer and direct countering pace on the wings, he’d look fine and in his element. But as we’re clearly not that kind of side, it just doesn’t work.

Fantastic post. I guess when you add the pieces you talk about to the intelligence, comms and defensive awareness and physicality I was talking about we really were looking for one hell of a player. Perhaps even a unicorn as not even Carrick passing through all those years ago ticked all this boxes.

I almost wrote about Biss myself when thinking of this equation, The Biss that led us to EL success in those latter stages was immense. He was our best player from the quarters to the final, without exception.

From the list you wrote, clearly Joao Gomes and Wharton look like they are the ones we could go all out for. What's also important is that Frank keeps working on Gray, Bergval and Sarr. I think we'll see some amazing nurturing breakthroughs with these guys. We've already seen some of that with Gray and I have a feeling fans will be talking about a few things Bergval will be doing differently in due course. I bet his passing stats go up as well.

 

[Kane]

That's not really what I said, or at least intended to say. There's plenty that don't rate him and use him being French and playing in the German league to downplay any positives he has, ie, his promise has been shown in inferior leagues.

Interesting I haven't seen the French angle at all, if anything I would have thought that would be seen as a positive due to the depth of quality France especially in the attacking posses.

The Bundesliga bit I could see, but if that was said they are missed the point. He wasn't particularly impressive in the Bundesliga either, he showed some talent but wasn't a standout, much like he's been in the PL.

Well, I would think its quite normal for clubs to evaluate a player's - any player's - past experience i.e. the levels they played at, the leagues, the countries, and so forth. Clubs will aim to do their due diligence before they bring a player in.
If a player gets off to, say, a somewhat slow-ish start at a club, then yes...like it or not, fans may wonder and ponder those things and bring them more in to focus to add context. I doubt that's unique to our fanbase, though. I'd imagine its common place up and down the country and around the world. As such, unsure if Simons has been particularly singled out unfairly in that regard relative to others.
Similar can apply to managers, too. Frank's prior 'limited' experience i.e. in youth footy in Denmark, Ange's varying levels in different countries, etc. Which, of course, have been discussed in here accordingly. i.e. "Their promise had been shown in inferior leagues".

 

[thfcsteff]

I disagree with you slightly here. Palhinha isn’t really the type of player those who wanted a DM were advocating for. Pal is very much a pure destroyer, whereas many wanted a deep passer/controller hybrid or an energetic harrier/harasser with good on-the-ball abilities. So you’re thinking more a Wharton, Caicedo, Rice, Gomes — hell, even Xhaka — type, I'll even whisper a Bissouma with his head screwed on.

I’m not surprised that Palhinha creates as many problems as he solves due to his very specific skill set. To play someone like him in a progressive side, or at least one attempting to be this, you have to overcompensate with the on-the-ball abilities of whoever is near him. We haven’t done that, so we are suffering largely from his limitations. A really obvious statement to make, I know, but it’s the reason it didn’t work out for him at Bayern: they needed more than a pure destroyer, and thus it's why he got fewer and fewer minutes once his limitations became obvious.

I think in a backs-to-the-wall, consistently deep-blocked setup, paired with a rangy long passer and direct countering pace on the wings, he’d look fine and in his element. But as we’re clearly not that kind of side, it just doesn’t work.

On paper, IMO Palhinha was a buy that would give us steel and allow others to play more progressively. I always thought he'd be the liberation of Bergy and Gray in that regard, Sarr too albeit I think the first two have superior skill sets (Sarr is a great 'rover' and carrier). Add to this that Palhinha can drop into defence easily to cover for Romero, plus his experience, and I thought it was a fine signing (given the lack of unicorns or a consistent Bissouma).

Instead, as you pointed out, Frank hasn't played him in such a way. The Bentancur new contract was bizarre as he seems to have lost the attacking edge he carried and is not as solid as Palhinha in a sixy sense. I wanted to see if he could become sixy for us, but we saw last season he was OK at best.

Palhinha is absolutely a 'specialist' and I agree, in todays game you want players with more strings to their bows, but he is another player this manager appears to not get the maximum value from.

FWIW I am a full-on believer in total football/Cruyff-style. I loved the Clockwork Orange 74 side and was lucky enough to see him live three times. It might explain why I love Romero, who is of the 'total football' school. So I see the limitations and irony of saying that
given we're talking about a specialist player LOL. This was a player Frank really wanted BTW, and as Fergie once told me, you have players for what they do not what they don't; so Frank must have an answer in that regard? If he did not understand what he was getting, well...that's an issue.

 

[thfcsteff]

Fantastic post. I guess when you add the pieces you talk about to the intelligence, comms and defensive awareness and physicality I was talking about we really were looking for one hell of a player. Perhaps even a unicorn as not even Carrick passing through all those years ago ticked all this boxes.

I almost wrote about Biss myself when thinking of this equation, The Biss that led us to EL success in those latter stages was immense. He was our best player from the quarters to the final, without exception.

From the list you wrote, clearly Joao Gomes and Wharton look like they are the ones we could go all out for. What's also important is that Frank keeps working on Gray, Bergval and Sarr. I think we'll see some amazing nurturing breakthroughs with these guys. We've already seen some of that with Gray and I have a feeling fans will be talking about a few things Bergval will be doing differently in due course. I bet his passing stats go up as well.

Yeah, I've said since he broke through that there's more passes in Bergvall as he matures. He also needs a coach who can guide him; he is perfect for a Poch or Pep in that regard. You cannot create the presence and belief he naturally has.

 

[Kandi1977]

No clear leadership being shown form the very top to the very bottom
Only one part of the club looks like it has a plan and that’s the ladies team which says how things have evolved
And I do mean from the very top down so board.. football management and on pitch leaders

Vinai Venkatesham was very outspoken and visible before the season, but we haven't really heard or seen anything from him since!

 

[Kandi1977]

Yeah, agree with most of what you say. I don't think we're totally disorganised though. I saw moments under Ange where we looked scarily that but clearly weren't. I think it's more a case that the manager is giving the players some organising principles but they are struggling to adhere to them. At worst, those organising principles aren't working against the opposition tactics, like we saw a lot with Ange.

I do put a lot of this down to the midfield areas of the pitch, both central and wide. I read for 2 seasons that we needed a Palhinha type player i.e. a player that is intelligent, can communicate with other players, get them organised positionally and create a better collective protective shield. I think what we're finding out is something different.

I'll take those 2 expensive signings and I'll happily welcome Dom and Kulu back into the fold. I'll also happily see some key exits in January, We need to keep moving.

We also need to just forget about Semenyo, and just go and get Antonio Nusa, before he joins barca. He's younger and has a higher ceiling than Semenyo and would cost far less now. In 6 months it'll be too late.

 

[Mikey10]

He's younger and has a higher ceiling than Semenyo and would cost far less now.

Would sound like a continuation of our usual policy then?

 

[Kandi1977]

Would sound like a continuation of our usual policy then?

Yes and no. He's young but already a top player, and probably a potential superstar. He's going to Barca this summer if no one picks him up in January.

 

[harr1984]

Yes and no. He's young but already a top player, and probably a potential superstar. He's going to Barca this summer if no one picks him up in January.

And if he knows this why on earth would he come to a club sitting 14th in the PL and playing like we currently are? I'm sure we are interested in plenty of good players, the problem is attracting them especially in January when it's not looking likely we even get any form of European football.....

 

[Kandi1977]

And if he knows this why on earth would he come to a club sitting 14th in the PL and playing like we currently are? I'm sure we are interested in plenty of good players, the problem is attracting them especially in January when it's not looking likely we even get any form of European football.....

Because Leipzig aren't using him where he's most effective. He'd be guaranteed to start most games here on the right wing. We can also afford wages higher than what he's got at RB Leipzig. And he wants to play in the premier league.