Technology And Refereeing

[the dza]

I don't think VAR suits football, football is game that flows. It suits the NFL because the game stops and resets after each play, so it enhances the game rather than takes away.

Having to stop for a few minutes several times per game is crap for football imo. I'd rather live with wrong decisions, sometimes they benefit us, sometimes we have to eat them.

 

[glasgowspur]

ou that


Is that the one hour game that lasts up to three hours because of all the stoppages?

I keep reading that and agree, to point. Well what about football, the 90 minute game that actually only plays 60, at best.
NFL, and I'm not a fan, is an entertainment, something football and it's rather snobbish purists should realise that that is also all it is to a lot of people.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

NFL, and I'm not a fan, is an entertainment, something football and it's rather snobbish purists should realise that that is also all it is to a lot of people.

Not sure I get the point your making? I’m thoroughly entertained by football in its current state. Not to say it couldn’t be tweaked a little, but it’s certainly entertaining.

 

[Jordinho]

Not sure I get the point your making? I’m thoroughly entertained by football in its current state. Not to say it couldn’t be tweaked a little, but it’s certainly entertaining.

With all the cheating, both on and off the pitch, the CL turning into a closed shop super league and the increasingly poor standards of refereeing, there's not much left to enjoy

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

With all the cheating, both on and off the pitch, the CL turning into a closed shop super league and the increasingly poor standards of refereeing, there's not much left to enjoy

No ones forcing you mate !

Like I say, a few tweaks, particularly to European competition and FFP being introduced properly and it will be better.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I don't think VAR suits football, football is game that flows. It suits the NFL because the game stops and resets after each play, so it enhances the game rather than takes away.

Having to stop for a few minutes several times per game is crap for football imo. I'd rather live with wrong decisions, sometimes they benefit us, sometimes we have to eat them.

Football is not a game that flows. Football is a game that stops every minute. Football is a game that stops for far longer than it should while child like players swear and scream at the ref for a decision they didnt like. And, usually, they know he got it right as well. Football is a game where players regularly take to the ground as if taken out by a sniper, lay there for a minute having successfully stopped the game, and then jump up and run around as if nothing happened. Football is a game where he ball is out of play all the time.

Football doesnt flow.

In fact, I believe, with an efficient VAR system, football would flow a hell of a lot better.

Decision made - move on.

Players get caught diving, get booked, get sent off even - they stop it - the game is less disjointed.

Look at the goal confirmation system, decision made - done - game goes on. Now think about how long the game was delayed when a goal is contested?

Having to stop for a few minutes to make a decision is crap for football. That doesnt mean VAR is, just that this current implementation is.

As Ive said, Id have the VAR official making calls in the refs ear, ref doesnt need to see, there is no delay.

Second to that, Id take the rugby approach of having the ref fully mic'd up and a real review on respect. The way footballers carry on is shameful, and stopping that would also help the flow of the game.

 

[the dza]

Football is not a game that flows. Football is a game that stops every minute. Football is a game that stops for far longer than it should while child like players swear and scream at the ref for a decision they didnt like. And, usually, they know he got it right as well. Football is a game where players regularly take to the ground as if taken out by a sniper, lay there for a minute having successfully stopped the game, and then jump up and run around as if nothing happened. Football is a game where he ball is out of play all the time.

Football doesnt flow.

In fact, I believe, with an efficient VAR system, football would flow a hell of a lot better.

Decision made - move on.

Players get caught diving, get booked, get sent off even - they stop it - the game is less disjointed.

Look at the goal confirmation system, decision made - done - game goes on. Now think about how long the game was delayed when a goal is contested?

Having to stop for a few minutes to make a decision is crap for football. That doesnt mean VAR is, just that this current implementation is.

As Ive said, Id have the VAR official making calls in the refs ear, ref doesnt need to see, there is no delay.

Second to that, Id take the rugby approach of having the ref fully mic'd up and a real review on respect. The way footballers carry on is shameful, and stopping that would also help the flow of the game.

That's true, there are already stoppages in the game. I meant relative to a sport like American Football, where the game stops and resets after every play. The equivalent to that in our football would be a team having an attack, the attack breaks down in 10 seconds, then the ref stops the game, goes back to the centre circle and blows the whistle, then the game starts again and the team tries another attack etc. Compared to that, football is very much a game that flows.

Goal-line technology is great because it enhances the game, doesn't add minutes of stoppages to review each goal it's just boom, done. So everyone supports that I think.

Totally agree with having the ref wired for sound so that we could all hear, get footballers behaving more respectfully.

But, many decisions on replay are so subjective, they need multiple replays and even then, still can't be 100%. That's what the delay is imo, I don't see how they can work around that. And to stop the game for minutes at a time to review decision after decision, I think it ruins the game.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I really think there are two main scenarios where it will be used

1) There is an incident, be that a foul or whatever, the game will have stopped anyway, so we are talking about using a few seconds to get the right decision at this point. The same seconds that would normally be occupied by argumentative players.

2) There is an incident the ref doesnt see, the VAR gets to review it and inform the ref with the decision. No actual stoppage.

The way it is implemented is what is taking time, the ref running over to a screen to review is a fudging stupid idea. Change that and the whole VAR thing takes on a whole new perspective.

IMHO if we can reach a point where decisions cannot be contested, and are much more reliably correct, and the players respect that - the game will flow much better than it does now and will be much better for it (and the way it is conducted).

 

[Baleforce]

once VAR is working the laws can be amended to remove the edge cases, offside could be based solely on the foot nearest the goal line for example

 

[the dza]

I really think there are two main scenarios where it will be used

1) There is an incident, be that a foul or whatever, the game will have stopped anyway, so we are talking about using a few seconds to get the right decision at this point. The same seconds that would normally be occupied by argumentative players.

2) There is an incident the ref doesnt see, the VAR gets to review it and inform the ref with the decision. No actual stoppage.

The way it is implemented is what is taking time, the ref running over to a screen to review is a fudging stupid idea. Change that and the whole VAR thing takes on a whole new perspective.

IMHO if we can reach a point where decisions cannot be contested, and are much more reliably correct, and the players respect that - the game will flow much better than it does now and will be much better for it (and the way it is conducted).

I think for point 1. there should be some sort of time limit or replay limit. So say it's a penalty call, the ref gives it, VAR reviews -- if they can't decide that the ref was wrong with 3 replays from different angles, then the refs call stands. I think that might work.

Though what happens for penalty calls where the ref waves it away but might have been wrong? The game ordinarily carries on, but do we then stop it for VAR to review the incident? Or play on while VAR reviews, then go back if it was a penalty? You could end up with a non penalty call, other team goes up the other end and scores, then VAR says it was a penalty, so that goal gets wiped off and the game goes back to a penalty for the other team. That would be bizarre to watch, even if it's the right decision.

For point 2. I think that's a very good idea. A red card incident the ref has missed, off the ball incidents -- the game carries on and then the ref gets the go ahead to send the player off. That should help to make the players behave themselves too, as they know they won't get away with it. Qunts like Suarez and Costa would have to change their game a bit.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

What penalty incidents dont result in the game stopping? I think most do, and if it takes 10-20 seconds to be sure of the right decision Id be fine with that.

As I said, most often players feel aggrieved and remonstrate with the ref and stop the game anyway - how often do incidents like that simply pass with the game playing on?

In my mind the ref is the primary leader on the field. If he wants help he asks for it, otherwise its business as usual. UNLESS VAR spots something that should be brought to his attention.

So for most things nothing should change. Just the more major decisions that should be afforded the chance to be made correctly.

Was he offside for the goal?
Was that a penalty?
This foul - Yellow card? Or Red?

Things like that. And I would expect it to be a dialogue between the ref and VAR ref, witht he VAR ref offering the decision. They are both qualified, it should be no issue. This is not a huge stoppage, its a quick conversation and a result.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Football is not a game that flows. Football is a game that stops every minute. Football is a game that stops for far longer than it should while child like players swear and scream at the ref for a decision they didnt like. And, usually, they know he got it right as well. Football is a game where players regularly take to the ground as if taken out by a sniper, lay there for a minute having successfully stopped the game, and then jump up and run around as if nothing happened. Football is a game where he ball is out of play all the time.

Football doesnt flow.

In fact, I believe, with an efficient VAR system, football would flow a hell of a lot better.

Decision made - move on.

Players get caught diving, get booked, get sent off even - they stop it - the game is less disjointed.

Look at the goal confirmation system, decision made - done - game goes on. Now think about how long the game was delayed when a goal is contested?

Having to stop for a few minutes to make a decision is crap for football. That doesnt mean VAR is, just that this current implementation is.

As Ive said, Id have the VAR official making calls in the refs ear, ref doesnt need to see, there is no delay.

Second to that, Id take the rugby approach of having the ref fully mic'd up and a real review on respect. The way footballers carry on is shameful, and stopping that would also help the flow of the game.

When the goal keeper wastes time or when the player takes time over a throw-on the object is not only to waste the time (that may be added to the end of the game) but to break up the flow and rhythm of the game.

"Football is a game that stops for far longer than it should while child like players swear and scream at the ref for a decision they didnt like. And, usually, they know he got it right as well. Football is a game where players regularly take to the ground as if taken out by a sniper, lay there for a minute having successfully stopped the game, and then jump up and run around as if nothing happened. Football is a game where he ball is out of play all the time."

Most of the refs decisions are grey areas I cant see how having VAR will stop any of this behavior, they will still scream and shout it will just add the extra time for VAR. I assume you would say if any of this happens after VAR give a yellow card, if thats the case do that now - the refs decision is final now, why would behavior change just because Bob in Uxbridge says the decision. What's diving these days all and any contact and the "player has the right to go down" - VAR will not stop this as when reviewed by the "panel of experts" they are still seen as fouls when the contact is not enough to go down. There are very few dives without contact that VAR will remove.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

The goal decision system has shown if a decision is categorically final, its final.

The way players treat refs is shocking, its a throwback, and it needs to end.

Something like VAR, where decisions can come in remotely, where things hidden from the ref can be seen - can aid in that shift in attitudes similar to the goal decision system.

And Im not expecting VAR to intrude on every single event in the game, just those where a second opinion is warranted.

I also refute your point on contact and fouls - there are plenty of times when a player is clearly "buying" a foul, leaving a leg in and going over - I think VAR would do a lot to kill this off. The margins between foul and dive can be fine, and if players start getting yellows instead of free kicks and penalties I think it would help reduce gamesmanship

 

[r-u-s-x]

The goal decision system has shown if a decision is categorically final, its final.

The way players treat refs is shocking, its a throwback, and it needs to end.

Something like VAR, where decisions can come in remotely, where things hidden from the ref can be seen - can aid in that shift in attitudes similar to the goal decision system.

And Im not expecting VAR to intrude on every single event in the game, just those where a second opinion is warranted.

I also refute your point on contact and fouls - there are plenty of times when a player is clearly "buying" a foul, leaving a leg in and going over - I think VAR would do a lot to kill this off. The margins between foul and dive can be fine, and if players start getting yellows instead of free kicks and penalties I think it would help reduce gamesmanship

the goal line decision is black and white - there is no argument- I don't think it can be used to prove or disprove reaction other subjective decisions. Most decisions are grey and I cant see how VAR will stop the arguments?

There will be times where VAR will stop the "buying" a foul but I stand by my statement that the majority of gamesmanship is not the player kicking out a leg but a player falling over with slightest contact. For me the removal of the first type is not worth the change in the game.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

VAR stops the arguments because someone has had time to see it in the best way and make an informed decision.

Yes, there are times even then its a judgement call, but you have to accept that a ref will make the right decision the vast majority of the time given the opportunity of replays and different angles.

Better, more accurate decisions made in good time surely has to be a good thing. It about giving the ref the best chance to do his job properly.

Im not entirely sure why you are so hung up on fouls either. They happen already. With luck VAR will curb it, but if it doesnt nothing has changed.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Ok I just don't agree that VAR will stop arguments on most decisions as the majority are judgment based and the players and managers will still argue (its already happened with the Chelsea dives).

I am not hung up on fouls I was addressing the bit where you thought a benefit of VAR would be these are removed - I don't think they will, the rules need to be changed on what is given as a foul.

If the ref can make more right decisions with all other things being equal this is a good thing. This has happened on goal line technology, ref can make the decision but nothing is changed in playing of the game. I don't think the benefit of introducing VAR for a few extra correct decisions is worth the change in the game it will bring.

If these are teething issues to be ironed out why are we bothering? Let Germany and Italy iron out the teething issues and if it does improve the game straight up copy it.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

We are bothering because there is demand.

There is demand because on a weekly basis there are numerous decisions made incorrectly (or not at all) when there is no good reason for this to be the case.

Im not sure where you are seeing me suggest buying fouls will be completely removed, I dont believe I said as much - rather it will be reduced as more decisions go against the gamesmanship.

I think, when you know the ref has made the decision based on a 360 degree, slow motion replay of an incident - you really wont have much to argue about. Certainly not right there and then. After the game? maybe, but thats another story.

And as I said, I also think there should be a big push in on field respect alongside VAR.

 

[jts1882]

Respect is easier to get when they aren't making huge mistakes. It's not conducive to respect when tens of thousands in the stands and millions watching on TV know the referee has made a mistake and he can't do anything about it. VAR is a step in the right direction.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I also think the refs audio should be used, like in Rugby.

Any disrespect and foul language means sanctions. Stamp it out.

 

[r-u-s-x]

We are bothering because there is demand.

There is demand because on a weekly basis there are numerous decisions made incorrectly (or not at all) when there is no good reason for this to be the case.

Im not sure where you are seeing me suggest buying fouls will be completely removed, I dont believe I said as much - rather it will be reduced as more decisions go against the gamesmanship.

I think, when you know the ref has made the decision based on a 360 degree, slow motion replay of an incident - you really wont have much to argue about. Certainly not right there and then. After the game? maybe, but thats another story.

And as I said, I also think there should be a big push in on field respect alongside VAR.

the polls I have seen have the majority not wanting the introduction of VAR http://www.fsf.org.uk/polls/#poll so I would argue that the demand isn't really there in enough numbers to warrant such a big change.

Guess we will agree to disagree on the arguments, I just don't see it having that effect where there is even the minor element of doubt.

Agree with respect on the field needs addressing.