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Tactics Thread

Cochise said:
After the Germany vs Italy match, I had a look at the Spurs squad and whether or not we have the ability to imitate either side by moving to a 3 at the back. There was an article posted earlier today which focussed on the emergence of the 352 at tournaments and how the three man back line is nothing more than a counter attacking solution to the two man attack. The article summised that because we rarely see two strikers playing alongside eachother at club level, the use of a two man defence is common place. To use a three man defence in these games would be tactically wrong as you would leave yourself unbalanced or outnumbered in midfield.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...has-3-5-2-worked-at-euro-2016-jonathan-wilson

In the Germany vs Italy match though Germany used their back three aggressively with Hummels and Howedes both stepping forward with the ball and forcing Italy to mark them with a front 3, pulling one of their midfielders up to instigate a press. The result was that it left Ozil, Khedira/Schweinsteiger and Kroos free to create passing options with only the two remaining Italian midfielders available to mark them. This became even more potent higher up the field, when Muller would drop into the space between the lines to create a further options, before dashing into space when play moved forward.

-----------------CB-----------------
------CB--------------------CB------
-----------------CM-----------------
RB------CM------------CM--------LB
----------------#10-----------------
------------------------------------
-----------------ST-----------------

So what about Spurs??
Firstly, it is fair to say that we do already play very closely to this manner. Dier does alternate between playing as a 3rd CB and a DM, leaving Dembele to find space in the next area of the field. Vertonghen, Wimmer and Alderweireld have all demonstrated that they are happy advancing with the ball and do not panic when confronted by an opposition player pressing them. Not just there, but our front four do already work in a rough diamond shape, with Lamela and Eriksen dropping deep, whilst Alli switches between playing as a 3rd CM and a vaguely #10 role off of Kane.

It is true that at times we have seen Eriksen drop deeper to play almost alongside Dembele, whilst Alli and Lamela have worked around Kane, but for large periods of this season, it would be fair to say that we have looked close to having a system that looks like;

-----Alderweireld---Dier---Vertonghen------
-------------------Dembele-------------------
Walker---Lamela----------Eriksen------Rose
----------------------Alli---------------------
---------------------Kane--------------------

This isn't a million miles away from the model that Germany adpoted vs Italy.

My personal preference were we to adopt this model, would be something closer to;

---------------------Dier--------------------
-----Alderweireld---------Vertonghen-----
------------------Dembele-----------------
Walker------Alli---------Eriksen-------Rose
-------------------Kane--------------------
-------------------------------------------
------------------New ST------------------

Reasons for Kane dropping deep?
I've been one of Kane's big supporters in keeping him as the main striker because at the moment the system suits the way he plays. Were we to move to a 352, moving him back into the deeper role behind the main man would in some ways suit him. He wouldn't be wasted in a physical duel against two big defenders and could focus more on finding and exploiting the space between the lines, something he is good at. Not only that, but his ability to shoot from distance could be utilised to greater effect. He would still be the second choice for the #9 role, but he would still get plenty of rest with players like Alli and Son in the squad and able to pick up the #10 role.

Cover in positions?
Alli and Eriksen can be covered by Lamela, Dembele, Son, Onomah and Pritchard.
Wanyama can feasibly cover Dembele as could Winks if we were looking to play a more progressive player in front of the back three. We also stil have Bentaleb, Mason and Carroll all able to do a job there.
Kane could be covered by Lamela,Alli and Son. Were we looking to move to a counter attacking system, then N'jie would be great working off of a lone front man (think Emirates Marketing Project).
In defence we have Wimmer and Davies able to cover the two main CB's.

Purchases and Casualties?
Janssen seems to be looking like a big possibility for the front man position. Even with that purchase looking a distinct possibility, we are still linked to a few others. A second player for the ST role would be needed for the squad if this system were used. With Davies looking like a wide CB at the tournament a new LB to rotate with Rose may be required (note made of reported interest in Jonas Hector).
We would probably see Fazio, Yedlin, Chadli, Mason, Carroll and Bentaleb (maybe) sold to fund any extra purchases.


NB: This is just a theoretical piece aimed at exploring the possibilities available to us. Given our current purchases and the fact that we are settled into it, I think we will be looking at another year of the same system.
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Interesting post @Cochise - like you suggest I don't think we're a million miles from playing that way already, Dier dropping back and the full backs pushing forward allows us to play 352 at times during games when attacking with often Lamela or Alli playing off of Kane

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I see how Poch wants a system but unlike barca who can have m-s-n I don't see how we are going to unlock defenses with regularity. There is a supposed quick transition counter attack that I recall Poch speaking about more than once that could be the key, but I don't think he has been successful in implementing this. Besides we press too high and for too much of the game. We've relied successfully on set pieces for goals though, and even that, a huge proportion doesn't get past the first defender.

Just highlighting some of the questions that I have, happy to hear your thoughts.

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We seem to have moved to a different system these last two games in order to get the most from Eriksen and Alli. I first thought I'd seen a change in system against Boro where we looked to have changed to a 4141/433ish shape and it was the same again last night against CSKA. Gillingham appeared to be a move back to the familiar 4231, but I'm wondering if this is an experiment against teams that like to sit back or a sample of how Poch is trying to evolve the system.

We seem to be playing with something close to a double pivot in front of Wanyama with Eriksen and Alli both taking it in turns to either drop deep or move in advance of Janssen. This seems to have seen Eriksen find more time on the ball whilst Alli has still been able to find those pockets between the lines and almost get on a couple of those Holywood passes from Alderweireld. Son, Lamela, N'Koudou and Sissoko have been the inverted wingers although in the cases of N'Koudou and Son we have seen them giving us a fair bit of width.
 
Cochise said:
We seem to have moved to a different system these last two games in order to get the most from Eriksen and Alli. I first thought I'd seen a change in system against Boro where we looked to have changed to a 4141/433ish shape and it was the same again last night against CSKA. Gillingham appeared to be a move back to the familiar 4231, but I'm wondering if this is an experiment against teams that like to sit back or a sample of how Poch is trying to evolve the system.

We seem to be playing with something close to a double pivot in front of Wanyama with Eriksen and Alli both taking it in turns to either drop deep or move in advance of Janssen. This seems to have seen Eriksen find more time on the ball whilst Alli has still been able to find those pockets between the lines and almost get on a couple of those Holywood passes from Alderweireld. Son, Lamela, N'Koudou and Sissoko have been the inverted wingers although in the cases of N'Koudou and Son we have seen them giving us a fair bit of width.
Click to expand...

It could be a plan b or it could just be trying to fit in his best players whilst Dembele is out.
 
I've said all along, I don't think we are yet playing to poch preferred style.
What that formation and style will be I've no idea, but I doubt it will be 4-1-4-1.
This is a young squad with a fair bit of learning and forming to do and poch doesn't seem the type to rush it.
 
milo said:
It could be a plan b or it could just be trying to fit in his best players whilst Dembele is out.
Click to expand...

I think it's this too

Without Dembele we do not have a like for like so Poch can stick two holders in as he has done or play a more expansive game and win points - knowing what we still have defensive cover

It's sensible management and works generally. The only game it backfired in was Monaco and we batted them but didn't take the chances

Be dry interesting to see how we line up on Sunday against the best side we have faced this season
 
Bedfordspurs said:
I think it's this too

Without Dembele we do not have a like for like so Poch can stick two holders in as he has done or play a more expansive game and win points - knowing what we still have defensive cover

It's sensible management and works generally. The only game it backfired in was Monaco and we batted them but didn't take the chances

Be dry interesting to see how we line up on Sunday against the best side we have faced this season
Click to expand...

We have a lot of options, but I hope Poch goes for power. I think we can work them into the ground, win the ball from them in dangerous areas and be pretty direct when we get it (not just long passes, but players like Dembele, Son and Sissoko getting a good run at them).

I know a lot of people don't like it, but I'd pair Dier and Wanyama in this game. This allows Dembele to be used at number 10. I'd bring in the fresh players who didn't play v CSKA.

------------------lloris
walker----toby-------vert-------rose
----------dier------wanyama
---sissoko------dembele-----son
---------------janssen

That is such a physically strong team with lots of athleticism and 3 players behind Janssen who can all dribble effectively. IMO, these players would be able to press Emirates Marketing Project into mistakes and run at their defence, which looks fragile. As well as that, we can work, run and tackle all over the pitch to stop them building up ahead of steam. With 7 outfield players over 6ft, we should have a good advantage at set-pieces too. I want to see us bully them out of their game plan.

With Alli, Eriksen, Lamela and GKN among the subs, we can introduce some guile and different attacking options if the game pans out that way. I have no idea what Poch will do to be honest, I am really looking forward to this test for us though.
 
3-4-3 plays to our strengths of the squad now, Wanyama being on the scene might have forced the hand with Dier slightly, but it is so much more solid for us than 4 at the back
 
We are so lucky to have 3 central defenders who have good technique and passing skills, many teams try the 3 centrebacks but with limited success as they play 3 stoppers who either play long balls or pass among themselves. Last night everyone of our outfield players made a run into the Chelsea's final third, something you rarely see.
 
I think this formation could be very good away from home against a top side. Would have loved to have seen how we could have done at Old Trafford with this same approach.
 
Two-step defending system is getting more and more popular among top clubs. It's a very effective system connecting high zonal pressing and well organised supporting last line of defense. The key is using wingbacks like in system 3-4-2-1 / 3-5-2 / 5-2-2-1 / 5-3-2.

A few very interesting examples by Tottenam [using Alderweireld, Sanchez and Vertonghen as stable line with Aurier and Trippier at wingbacks. Meanwhile Winks, Eriksen, Son and Dier with Kane performing first phase of agressive defending].

 
"Far cry from small boys in the park, jumpers for goalposts, rush goalie, two at the back, three in the middle, four up front, ones gone home for his tea, beans on toast?"
 
I hope that this is the death knell for the 352. We looked brick most of the game against Dortmund, brick against Arsenal and brick for the 30 minutes it lasted against West Brom.

We are too easy to defend against in that lineup and we cannot break down the opposition.
 
Cochise said:
I hope that this is the death knell for the 352. We looked brick most of the game against Dortmund, brick against Arsenal and brick for the 30 minutes it lasted against West Brom.

We are too easy to defend against in that lineup and we cannot break down the opposition.
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What’s the alternative?

One up front is easier to defend against if you park the bus

Surely the issue is the players playing need to play better first and foremost and we need more variety on the pitch
 
4231 personally. We looked much better once we got Son pushed up and wide. Alli and Eriksen found more pockets and the play flowed better.
 
Diamonds are for the present?

This pre-season was a bit of a car crash. Half of our first team were missing due to extended world cup runs, whilst squad members dropped like flies during their time in the USA, leaving fans unable to draw many conclusions from the games.

One thing did remain unchanged throughout though and that was the presence of a midfield three. This was not the first time Poch has experimented with it, however in previous iterations he had reverted to a more trusted formation for competitive games, this season though has so far seen us use it in both games. The real marker will be whether or not we see it in the next match against Man UTD.

Against Roma we saw Eriksen, Amos and Sissoko in a midfield three with Lamela sitting behind Moura and Llorente, similarly to how we finished against Fulham. On that day there was a pleasing amount of interplay between Lamela and Eriksen with Sissoko adding stability on the right to allow Aurier to hold the width on that flank.

Unfortunately an injury to Lamela saw the end of this formation and we reverted back to a 433 for the remaining pre season fixture. In those games, we played for the most part an incredibly inexperienced side, however there was a clear lack of cutting edge to the midfield play.

On to our first league fixture and we saw the experiment continue. Eriksen was given a free role off of the front two with Dele playing on the left of the diamond. The two rotated throughout the match and as with the Roma game, Sissoko's presence on the right allowed for this freedom.

In the Fulham game we started with a 352. The system was great for keeping possession, but we failed to cut them open reliably. The second half saw our midfield three often out numbered with our fullbacks often dropping back to leave us with five defenders marking three Fulham attackers and the trio of Dele, Eriksen and Dier having to cover four or five Fulham midfielders.

Poch made the change to bring Dembele on for Sanchez. What may be more interesting is that he move Dier out from the centre and over to the right of the three, similarly to how Sissoko operated the week before. This immediately started paying dividends. Even Jokanovic in his post match interview noted that once our midfield shape changed they found it hard to keep up with us.



The below is a sequence of images that highlight what I mean;

Our back two and keeper circulate the ball to take Mitrovic out of the game before feeding the ball to Dembele who can advance on their midfield line.

Fulham%202_zpsdq659wgx.png


Note the positions of our other midfielders. Dier is occupying their left winger, Davies their right. Dele occupies their DM, whilst Eriksen and Moura take up positions where neither of the Fulham fullbacks are happy to go to.

Fulham%203_zpskieohahk.png


As soon as the ball is slipped into Eriksen he attracts the attention of the Fulham RB as well as three other players. The pass triggers a run from Dele into the space the full back has just left. Eriksen finds him with a pass that leads to a 3v3 situation.

The extra man in midfield also helped defensively. Prior to us having a man in this position the DM (Dier) was easily exposed, but Lamela is defensively aware of where he needs to be.

Fulham%204_zps5d49ceai.png


Eriksen moves out to cover the man with the ball, breaking our midfield shape.

Fulham%205_zpsaeu4i6hp.png


Lamela however reads the situation quickly and runs to cover that space.

Fulham%206_zpsdr8g2x3s.png


He does concede the foul, however it is not a dangerous area to do so and stopped what could have developed into an attack.

Going forward this season, it will be interesting to see if the midfield bank of three remains a fixture. Pochettino in one of his post match interviews spoke more about the ethos (not the word he used) of the squad and less about the system, but if this gets the most out of our players it could well become this seasons opening formation. The questions will be whether Dier and/or Wanyama can do what Dembele does when he is resting and whether we have the depth to cover the attacking players in the midfield.
 
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Interesting post @Cochise and great use of screen shots to illustrate your point! One player you didn't factor into your final paragraph thinking, is Winks. He most certainly can operate in a three man midfield and do what Dembele does (for up to 60 mins). His transition speed is as good as we've got in accepting a pass from defence and turning it into an attack.

Our midfield three from Dembele, Dier, Winks, Wanyama, Onomah, Eriksen looks quite capable. 4, 3, 2, 1 is kind of how it looks when Kane is on the pitch. Lamela, Alli, Moura or Son behind him.

I think 3 5 2 is the way to go in first halves though against teams who offer an attacking threat and then adapt around half time. This is one of the benefits of having a stable squad, Poch has developed different game plans which the players should know inside out by now, after three/four years together.
 
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