Set Pieces

[Pirate55]

Two points on this:

1. Aren't you arguing against yourself by saying that it is evident that we are spending more time practicing corners in training, in that we have a lower return from them this season than last. If you are right about our training, then the conclusion must be that practicing corners is ineffective.

2. I don't agree that there is any evidence that we are spending more time practicing corners. I think that this is a classic case of confirmation bias.

Then all I can say is that you are denying the evidence of your eyes ( call it confirmation bias, if you will).

I have been entirely consistent. Since we started varying our corners, about five or so games ago, we have looked a lot more threatening from them - and even scored a couple of goals. Now we are showing the results of more practice, and I fully expect that if this continues, our conversion rate will improve. Let's see shall we.

I know you argue it is all down to luck, but as Gary Player once said, "it's funny, the more I practice, the luckier I get"!

 

[scaramanga]

Then all I can say is that you are denying the evidence of your eyes ( call it confirmation bias, if you will).

I have been entirely consistent. Since we started varying our corners, about five or so games ago, we have looked a lot more threatening from them - and even scored a couple of goals. Now we are showing the results of more practice, and I fully expect that if this continues, our conversion rate will improve. Let's see shall we.

I know you argue it is all down to luck, but as Gary Player once said, "it's funny, the more I practice, the luckier I get"!

And what we've seen is the basis of what everyone's been trying to tell you for weeks - that the outcome of corners is mainly down to chance and that whilst we might look dangerous, we're still not scoring.

 

[milo]

Then all I can say is that you are denying the evidence of your eyes ( call it confirmation bias, if you will).

I have been entirely consistent. Since we started varying our corners, about five or so games ago, we have looked a lot more threatening from them - and even scored a couple of goals. Now we are showing the results of more practice, and I fully expect that if this continues, our conversion rate will improve. Let's see shall we.

I know you argue it is all down to luck, but as Gary Player once said, "it's funny, the more I practice, the luckier I get"!

It's well established that your eyes tell you want you want to see, which was kinda my point.

Let's just run through your argument one more time:

1. Goals win games
2. Goals come from corners
3. If we score more goals from corners we will win more games
4. If we practise corners we will score more goals
5. We are clearly practising corners
6. We are scoring less goals from corners than when I thought that we weren't working on them
7. This proves that I am right

 

[Pirate55]

It's well established that your eyes tell you want you want to see, which was kinda my point.

Let's just run through your argument one more time:

1. Goals win games
2. Goals come from corners
3. If we score more goals from corners we will win more games
4. If we practise corners we will score more goals
5. We are clearly practising corners
6. We are scoring less goals from corners than when I thought that we weren't working on them
7. This proves that I am right

You have misinterpreted or misunderstood what I have said. I said SOME goals come from corners and we are one of the lowest at converting the corners we do have into goals. Yet we get just about the most corners in the division, yet score just about the fewest goals from this source. Consequently, if we improved our conversion rate through practicing different and varied corners , we would score more goals.

In the early part of the season, all we seemed to do was try near post corners. Many(if not most) did not clear the first man. I wanted us to try different variations on corners, which require practice.

In the last few weeks, it looked to me like we were indeed trying out different ideas which had been practiced - far post, edge of penalty area etc. The result of this additional practice resulted in more goals and certainly more goal chances ( 4 good ones against the Goons alone)

However, when we are under pressure in clutch games - Chelsea in the semi Final or tonight against West Ham,- we seem to forget all that and just sling everything near post again - all with predictable results!

I don't know if it is lack of mental strength or fatigue, but something untoward always seems to affect us in these games. An extra goal or two from a corner could make all the difference.

Do you agree that our return from corners this season has been disappointing?

If you can't see that or just don't agree, then I don't think there is anything further to discuss and we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Mr_B]

3% of goals are scored from corners, teams have an average of 6 corners a game, so thats 5 games to score a goal from a corner makes this a redundant thread.

 

[90291Spur]

3% of goals are scored from corners, teams have an average of 6 corners a game, so thats 5 games to score a goal from a corner makes this a redundant thread.

Nice, concise way to put this thread in the dustbin of history.

 

[milo]

You have misinterpreted or misunderstood what I have said. I said SOME goals come from corners and we are one of the lowest at converting the corners we do have into goals. Yet we get just about the most corners in the division, yet score just about the fewest goals from this source. Consequently, if we improved our conversion rate through practicing different and varied corners , we would score more goals.

In the early part of the season, all we seemed to do was try near post corners. Many(if not most) did not clear the first man. I wanted us to try different variations on corners, which require practice.

In the last few weeks, it looked to me like we were indeed trying out different ideas which had been practiced - far post, edge of penalty area etc. The result of this additional practice resulted in more goals and certainly more goal chances ( 4 good ones against the Goons alone)

However, when we are under pressure in clutch games - Chelsea in the semi Final or tonight against West Ham,- we seem to forget all that and just sling everything near post again - all with predictable results!

I don't know if it is lack of mental strength or fatigue, but something untoward always seems to affect us in these games. An extra goal or two from a corner could make all the difference.

Do you agree that our return from corners this season has been disappointing?

If you can't see that or just don't agree, then I don't think there is anything further to discuss and we will just have to agree to disagree.

Are you no longer saying that practising corners would result in more goals?

 

[Pirate55]

Are you no longer saying that practising corners would result in more goals?

No.

 

[milo]

3% of goals are scored from corners, teams have an average of 6 corners a game, so thats 5 games to score a goal from a corner makes this a redundant thread.

That's just about the size of it. The only other points are that there isn't a correlation between corners won and goals scored and that teams do not seem to get a consistent number of goals from corners season to season.

 

[milo]

No.

So you do think that it would result in more goals? Why haven't we seen this, if you are right and we have been working on this more?

 

[Baleforce]

3% of goals are scored from corners, teams have an average of 6 corners a game, so thats 5 games to score a goal from a corner makes this a redundant thread.

well...

yes, that's the way it's been up to now

but,

what if we can scheme a way to be considerably more effective from corners than any other team has ever been, football isn't fixed, skill and tactics are constantly improving, there is edge everywhere with the correct analysis

we can look at across the board statistics and say we are above average and therefore ok, but those averages are diluted, not every corner is an attempt to score for example, some are merely short passes to burn clock and hold possession

there are marginal gains to be had everywhere and with the budget and data now available i'm sure all clubs are chasing them

 

[Hashegotthesackyet?]

With reference to the % figures of scoring from corners, how is this stat measured? I.e. Do they only count the first touch or header that goes directly into the net, or does it include the immediate passage of play, 2nd ball, knock down etc?

 

[milo]

With reference to the % figures of scoring from corners, how is this stat measured? I.e. Do they only count the first touch or header that goes directly into the net, or does it include the immediate passage of play, 2nd ball, knock down etc?

I posted how Opts measure this on the last page

If you were interested, it is reasonably easy to find out how they define each. Opta, for instance, publish their event definitions, they are the source of Squawka's data which you have chosen to selectively disregard. Here is their definition for set pieces:

Pattern of play for Goals/Attempts

Set Piece goals/attempts are those where the ball starts from a dead ball situation such as a corner, a free kick, a penalty or a Throw-in and results in a shot before the phase of play has broken down into open play.

The exact point at which it becomes open play is usually clear but set pieces which are cleared and then the ball is put straight back into the penalty area are still deemed to be part of the set piece as the defending team is still positioned to deal with the set play.

- See more at: http://optasports.com/news-area/blog-optas-event-definitions.aspx#sthash.TSN9EwRZ.dpuf​

 

[Hashegotthesackyet?]

I posted how Opts measure this on the last page

I couldn't be arsed to trawl through the thread as most of the posts are people seem to be scoring their own points when debating it; I say "most of the posts", but haven't worked out the exact percentage and it may not be fact backed up by stats

 

[Pirate55]

well...

yes, that's the way it's been up to now

but,

what if we can scheme a way to be considerably more effective from corners than any other team has ever been, football isn't fixed, skill and tactics are constantly improving, there is edge everywhere with the correct analysis

we can look at across the board statistics and say we are above average and therefore ok, but those averages are diluted, not every corner is an attempt to score for example, some are merely short passes to burn clock and hold possession

there are marginal gains to be had everywhere and with the budget and data now available i'm sure all clubs are chasing them

Exactly my point. Surely we have to take every opportunity to improve. It is these fine margins that can make all the difference. Even one extra goal could be crucial.

We know that we will get 7-10 corners a game. The position of a corner is fixed. The ball isn't moving. We can set up how we like. We can deliver it how we want ( Eriksen's fudge ups notwithstanding). It is the one area of the game where we can dictate many variables - and the only one we can be reasonably sure will occur several times in every game.

It is negligent in my view if we don't practice corners and have variations worked out in advance.

Chelsea certainly believe it is worthwhile as was shown by their innovative set play against Everton.

 

[milo]

Chelsea certainly believe it is worthwhile as was shown by their innovative set play against Everton.

And yet their return is only marginally better than ours and the difference could be down to chance.

I am in favour of what @galeforce is suggesting. I think that using evidence to identify weaknesses and how to take advantage of them is exactly what we should be doing. That is the way that I have tried to approach this discussion.

The popularity of near post corners and short corners are both a result of an analytical approach.

 

[braineclipse]

1. I dont believe the tine on the training ground is absolutely finite. Do you? Do you really think it is say 3 hours per day and not a minute more or a minute less? Do you think if we spent say 2 hours 50 minutes or 3 hours 10 minutes the sky would suddenly fall in or we would suddenly be playing Pulis-ball? Do you not see videos of our players generally messing around - trying to re-create spectacular goals, trying to beat world records for volleys or nutmegs, doing keepy- uppies, etc, Is this part of your "finite" period for training?

2. I do not believe that if we spend a small amount of time on practicing corners the rest of our in-game playing would be affected in any way.

3. I do believe that if we are going to get say 7-10 corners per game, this is an aspect worth spending some time on. Indeed, Poch and the coaching team now (at last) seem to be agreeing with this as well. Against Arsenal, we showed a much greater variety and variation in corners which I am sure you will agree must have been rehearsed and practiced. Sometimes we went short, sometimes long, sometimes we took a short corner and sometimes we varied the actual corner kicker (Eriksen and Davies). As a direct result, we looked much more dangerous from corners and indeed created 4 good chances from them (Toby 2 and Verts 2). On another day, and without Cech's brilliance, we could have had one or two goals from corners.

Did you not see Chelsea's well worked goal attempt from a corner against Everton last week. It was an interesting variation and had obviously been worked on at the training ground. So it seems Conte also recognises that it is worth devoting some time to as well.

Now that we also seem to have taken this on board and have thereby improved our corner taking variation, I am confident that our conversion rate will now increase. I sincerely hope we get one tonight against the Spammers!

1. If course there is some flexibility in how much time we spend on the training ground. But I trust Pochettino to make good decisions on how much time is better for the team. Surely you can understand the potential negative consequences of just adding more time to our training? Or do you just think Pochettino is leaving a valuable chance to improve our team by not training more for whatever reason? Isn't the "just train 20 more minutes a day"argument you're presenting essentially valid for all clubs at all time? It seems utterly simplistic.

2. I do think we practice corners a small amount of time. You don't think so? Isn't your argument that we should do it more?

3. But what makes it a better use of our time than other aspects of our game? Why not spend that 20 minutes on shooting, passing, dribbling, positioning, movement, tackling, formation work, pressing, mental aspects, physical fitness or any other of the many potential ways we could spend that extra 20 minutes? Time and time again I've asked and you're simply not answering this most basic question to what you're proposing. Why corners of all things? Why would this be the best use of our (extra) time?

4. Maybe you're right that we've worked a bit more on our corners recently. I imagine it's the kind of thing that's done sporadically as it's not the most important thing, but not entirely without importance. A lot of good it did us against West Ham. At least twice now you've said "hope we score from a corner against ..." and had we scored in one of those you probably would have seen it as a confirmation of your thinking on this topic.

Perhaps we would have been better off spending the time you think we've spent on corners on how to deal with West Ham pressing us? Or on how to break down their parked bus during open play?

 

[90291Spur]

If the club recorded our training sessions, and the video was verified by an independent ombudsman, and placed on the OS as a premium feature (say £4.99 a month) we would know for certain how much corner practice there is and what form it took. And thusly a large part of this fascinating debate could be resolved.

 

[milo]

If the club recorded our training sessions, and the video was verified by an independent ombudsman, and placed on the OS as a premium feature (say £4.99 a month) we would know for certain how much corner practice there is and what form it took. And thusly a large part of this fascinating debate could be resolved.

We'd need Chelsea and Westminster Brom to follow suit to be sure

 

[mudshark]

Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons a little bit in this debate, the data here (http://www.footcharts.co.uk/index.cfm?task=corr_corners) are quite interesting, and suggest that, in any given season, more often than not, there is a significant linear correlation between numbers of goals per game and numbers of corners. If you average the data for each club over all seasons, though (presumably what Anderson and Sally did), it more or less vanishes. There were one or two seasons in the range they used where the correlation was only very weak, as well.

Edit: I say it more or less vanishes, but actually, I'm not sure it does. I plotted my own averages using the footcharts.co.uk data for 2001-02 to 2010-11, expecting my plot to look like Anderson and Sally's, and this is what came out:

There's 35 teams involved, and Spurs are represented by the point at (5.71, 1.41). Nobody averages anywhere near 20 corners a game, though ....