Ryan Mason

[billyiddo]

I agree, and it's a good point.

I keep coming back to Atletico Madrid and Dortmund, but I really think they're good models for the kind of balance we need to find. Look at the trust Atletico have put in players like Gimenez, Saul and Oblak. (all between 25 and 37 league starts this season) at 21, 21 and 23 (young for a goalie) respectively. It's not that they had to do this. I still think part of the reason they let Alderweireld leave was because of how highly they rate young Gimenez - and getting him on the pitch in a lot of games is the way to develop him. That one actually almost ended up costing them the CL final when he gave away the penalty against Bayern. How's that for the right balance? Looking at Dortmund they've shown a lot of trust in Weigl and Ginter this season. In the past there have been plenty of others.

What I come back to is that we cannot expect to both develop young players currently outside our starting 11 and have backups for all of our first team players that are more proven. That approach just doesn't seem to work. The young player being integrated needs to be either first choice (like Dier was apparently made this season) or the "first choice backup" like Wimmer has been and Alli perhaps started the season as. Alli came on as a sub in our first 3 league games this season, including games against good opponents when we needed a goal. He was clearly being given a real place in the team. If we still had Sigurdsson for example around the place as that option off the bench Alli could easily have had a much more quiet season.

How do we strike the balance? I think with our current setup we could handle young talented backup players both for Dier/Dembele and for Kane. Though, again, I wouldn't mind someone more proven coming in either.

i guess im kind of repeating myself here but i don't think we have young players who can cover the two positions i am talking about, i don't agree that Bentaleb can develop in to a good alternative to Dier (potentially a good player in the box to box role or further forward) and we know that we don't have anyone ready to step in for Kane - so for me buying players to fill these two gaps in the squad whilst leaving other areas of the squad free for our younger players to develop in is striking a good balance.

if the club has faith in the younger players available to step up im not suggesting we buy players to go in front of them just for the sake of it, what im suggesting is improving the positions where we don't have players coming through - Dortmund and A.Madrid still sign players to compete for the first team, my guess is that those signings would have been in positions they don't see their youngsters as being good enough to step up into...

also possibly worth noting both those sides play in less competitive leagues which have a winter break - so there is more freedom to give time to younger/untested players and there is less strain on squads fitness levels

 

[Sandman]

Got to agree with the majority of what you are saying there Braineclipse. We cant and will never have the financial muscle of say the Manchester United's and Real Madrids. There was a point where that was possible in the early 90's but we missed the moment when the worldwide appeal of the Premier League went global.

What we do have though is a Club based in London. Financially that helps a lot. Also with the expansion of the stadium and the TV money this can allow us to keep the players we turn into stars. But that really has to be the model. We get in or create talented youngsters but we also have to leave a space for them to advance towards the team. if we block every option with a bought back up then its true that we will not develop our own talent.

As clubs Dortmund and Athletico have shown you can mix if up with the Rich clubs. With the right philosophy and the right blend. I would be happy if we only ever splashed out on 1 or 2 players every summer. Not proven players, but talented young players. And use the money we are going to generate to pay players like Alli, Kane etc to stay at the club for as long as we can. If they stay and we mature as a team. Then we can go places. The blend is there.

If it is obvious that we dont have a yount player who can possibly step up then we buy. For example there is no replacement for Kane so we need to buy. But hopefully Pritchard can be back up to some of the other forward positions. Then maybe we can let Chadli go.

 

[braineclipse]

i guess im kind of repeating myself here but i don't think we have young players who can cover the two positions i am talking about, i don't agree that Bentaleb can develop in to a good alternative to Dier (potentially a good player in the box to box role or further forward) and we know that we don't have anyone ready to step in for Kane - so for me buying players to fill these two gaps in the squad whilst leaving other areas of the squad free for our younger players to develop in is striking a good balance.

if the club has faith in the younger players available to step up im not suggesting we buy players to go in front of them just for the sake of it, what im suggesting is improving the positions where we don't have players coming through - Dortmund and A.Madrid still sign players to compete for the first team, my guess is that those signings would have been in positions they don't see their youngsters as being good enough to step up into...

also possibly worth noting both those sides play in less competitive leagues which have a winter break - so there is more freedom to give time to younger/untested players and there is less strain on squads fitness levels

Not convinced that you're right on Bentaleb. He's very young still and last time he played regularly he was playing next to Mason, ahead of Fazio and in a team nowhere near the level of pressing we've put in this season.

I agree though that if Pochettino doesn't see Bentaleb as a potential solution we probably need another CM this summer. And I agree that we almost certainly need another striker. A CM and a striker this summer would be my two top priorities in fact. I think we could fill those two positions with young talented and fairly cheap signings and come out of it really well. Not convinced that we have to look at PL proven players like Wanyama or £25m+ strikers like Batshuyahi for those roles in our squad. Which is pretty much the point I'm arguing against those claiming that we need to spend big this summer.

 

[camspur]

Not convinced that you're right on Bentaleb. He's very young still and last time he played regularly he was playing next to Mason, ahead of Fazio and in a team nowhere near the level of pressing we've put in this season.

I agree though that if Pochettino doesn't see Bentaleb as a potential solution we probably need another CM this summer. And I agree that we almost certainly need another striker. A CM and a striker this summer would be my two top priorities in fact. I think we could fill those two positions with young talented and fairly cheap signings and come out of it really well. Not convinced that we have to look at PL proven players like Wanyama or £25m+ strikers like Batshuyahi for those roles in our squad. Which is pretty much the point I'm arguing against those claiming that we need to spend big this summer.

I think if Poch doesn't see Bentaleb as being someone who can fill the CM roll he would have been shipped out with the others before the season started.

 

[braineclipse]

I think if Poch doesn't see Bentaleb as being someone who can fill the CM roll he would have been shipped out with the others before the season started.

Speculation has been that something happened during this season to make Pochettino marginalize Bentaleb like he did with Townsend. That is speculative though and I'm not trusting it at this point.

 

[billyiddo]

Not convinced that you're right on Bentaleb. He's very young still and last time he played regularly he was playing next to Mason, ahead of Fazio and in a team nowhere near the level of pressing we've put in this season.

I agree though that if Pochettino doesn't see Bentaleb as a potential solution we probably need another CM this summer. And I agree that we almost certainly need another striker. A CM and a striker this summer would be my two top priorities in fact. I think we could fill those two positions with young talented and fairly cheap signings and come out of it really well. Not convinced that we have to look at PL proven players like Wanyama or £25m+ strikers like Batshuyahi for those roles in our squad. Which is pretty much the point I'm arguing against those claiming that we need to spend big this summer.

Bentaleb and Mason played in a very different midfield two to the one which we currently deploy - that was much more of a pivot with both players sharing responsibilities up and down the pitch - what we have now and what is working much better for us is a more traditional DM/box to box pairing - Bentalebs better qualities tend to be more on the attack side of the role imo so asking him to play the Dier role is a bit of a stretch atm, not unless he works hard and improves the defensive side of his game, again not saying that couldn't happen just see him as more of a candidate for the role next to Dier based on how we have seen him play previously.

i thought you was arguing about us blocking the path to the first team for youngsters by signing players to go ahead of them in the pecking order - in that sense it doesn't make much difference whether we spend big or buy a cheaper alternative - either way the path to the first team will be much harder as a result for the young player(s) in question.

presumably the CM you want to sign would be a Dembele alternative? which i find surprising as i think in regards to our young players coming through it's the CM position which isnt the more defensive of the two that we are far better stocked in (Bentaleb/Mason/Carroll/Winks/Onomah...) so imv you'd actually be blocking off more youngsters by signing that type of CM than the DM that i am suggesting

 

[braineclipse]

Bentaleb and Mason played in a very different midfield two to the one which we currently deploy - that was much more of a pivot with both players sharing responsibilities up and down the pitch - what we have now and what is working much better for us is a more traditional DM/box to box pairing - Bentalebs better qualities tend to be more on the attack side of the role imo so asking him to play the Dier role is a bit of a stretch atm, not unless he works hard and improves the defensive side of his game, again not saying that couldn't happen just see him as more of a candidate for the role next to Dier based on how we have seen him play previously.

i thought you was arguing about us blocking the path to the first team for youngsters by signing players to go ahead of them in the pecking order - in that sense it doesn't make much difference whether we spend big or buy a cheaper alternative - either way the path to the first team will be much harder as a result for the young player(s) in question.

Last season Mason had a lot more attacking freedom than Bentaleb. The reason we're playing a more tradition DM/box to box system now is the strength of the players involved.
Quite typical for deep playmaker type DM players to take time to develop into the defensive side of the game.

Yes, signing a player ahead of a talented youngster can block his way into the team and hinder his development. If we want Onomah to develop, at some point we must give him a decent role in the squad and trust him.

As I've said repeatedly if Bentaleb isn't rated by Pochettino any more a CM/DM is probably needed this summer. MIght be that Ball or Winks are good enough for that not to be the case, I just don't know. I don't see an obvious player ready to step in there of our youngsters other than Bentaleb. But my knowledge is obviously limited. Striker position seems even more clear cut in that no youngster has made a claim for that role as of now. My point about squad option/rotation signings blocking the path for younger talents was a more general point.

Signing a younger talented player or a more experienced player for that role doesn't change much for other young players looking for game time in that position, sure. Striker and CM/DM positions that could be argued convincingly (ignoring Bentaleb at least). Though there are other reasons to perhaps look for younger players. Usually the potential to develop is usually going to be greater in a young player and younger players are also more likely to accept a squad role with less game time than a higher profile more expensive older player.

 

[billyiddo]

@braineclipse

im not sure thats the case re Mason/Bentaleb last season - we had a thread on this early in the season (i think you weren't around much at that time so don't know if you saw it) - depending on how much stock you put in heat maps and the like it showed there was little difference between the positions each player took up on the pitch and where they were getting on to the ball. Mason had a greater inclination to get on to balls in to the box but that was about the only telling difference. compared to this season where the roles are much more defined in terms of up and down the pitch.


with regards to the rest im not sure where it is that you're actually disagreeing with me - i don't want to block off young players paths to the team and only want us to sign a couple of players to fill the gaps in the squad where i don't see any viable alternative, which seems to be the angle from which you are coming from as well? it seems we just disagree on which type of CM needs to be signed and how much we should be spending on a CF, none of which really matters with regards to the talk of young alternatives in the squad/academy which seemed to be the thrust of your argument

 

[Rorschach]

If Bentaleb develops as the holder I can see it more the vein of Carrick rather than the more destructive Dier style player. Carrick was more about the angles and cutting off options rather than ball winning per se. Bentaleb could learn this if he had a mind to. He is young but he has undoubted talent.

 

[braineclipse]

@braineclipse

im not sure thats the case re Mason/Bentaleb last season - we had a thread on this early in the season (i think you weren't around much at that time so don't know if you saw it) - depending on how much stock you put in heat maps and the like it showed there was little difference between the positions each player took up on the pitch and where they were getting on to the ball. Mason had a greater inclination to get on to balls in to the box but that was about the only telling difference. compared to this season where the roles are much more defined in terms of up and down the pitch.


with regards to the rest im not sure where it is that you're actually disagreeing with me - i don't want to block off young players paths to the team and only want us to sign a couple of players to fill the gaps in the squad where i don't see any viable alternative, which seems to be the angle from which you are coming from as well? it seems we just disagree on which type of CM needs to be signed and how much we should be spending on a CF, none of which really matters with regards to the talk of young alternatives in the squad/academy which seemed to be the thrust of your argument

Not going into a whole Mason/Bentaleb role thing again, seems way off topic in what is already an off topic conversation

I started off quoting you that I agree with you about not being in the market for backups. And saying that players like Wanyama and Bathuayi aren't necessarily what we have to go for and that younger lower profiled players might be just as good to "close the gap" between our current first choice and those available on the bench.

 

[Kandi1977]

Throwing Mason away now would be very unfair, same to Bentaleb. As should happen the structure of the team has changed and therefore the requirements of those players have changed. Both players and Pritchard have been pretty much lost to injury. Playing Mason as a replacement to Dembele is a bit unfair to him as the team doesnt function the same way anymore

Id move Mason further forward, Bentaleb id get out on loan as i think he needs game time.

We probably need a DM who can play CB i think we can find this to replace Dier
Replacing Dembele is more tricky as we need a CM who can carry the ball forward but also can put his foot in. Only other i can think of is Toure (a few years back)

Well that's the whole fudging point! He's not good enough to cover for Dembele, and that's unfair? And play him further up? In place of who? Alli? Eriksen? Lamela? Son? Chadli? Kane? I think not, because they are all better than him. So I guess that'd be unfair...

 

[90291Spur]

Here's a radical idea. Why don't we let Poch decide if Mason is good enough or not?

 

[Kandi1977]

Here's a radical idea. Why don't we let Poch decide if Mason is good enough or not?

Why on earth would we do that??? Weirdo!

 

[camspur]

Speculation has been that something happened during this season to make Pochettino marginalize Bentaleb like he did with Townsend. That is speculative though and I'm not trusting it at this point.

I hadn';t heard anything like that, I assumed that it was purely down to missing 18 games through injury, the emergence of Alli and then picking up another injury and having knee surgery in March that had kept him out of the team.

 

[Roy1983]

Here's a radical idea. Why don't we let Poch decide if Mason is good enough or not?

Indeed. He does think he's good enough too.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I like Mason and I think there is always value in having a player like him in the squad. This season he doesn't seem to have reached the same heights as he did last season though. Whether that is down to him being hampered by his injury, a slight change in role within the team or simply from not having enough performances to really get into the groove I do not know.

Roy - do you know if the injury been hampering him at all?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Speculation has been that something happened during this season to make Pochettino marginalize Bentaleb like he did with Townsend. That is speculative though and I'm not trusting it at this point.

The Twitter rumour was that it was Bentalebs agent's conduct during contract negotiations. But that was last June/July. There's been 2 transfer windows since then, and PSG are clearly very keen of him if he isn't wanted.

I think there was also some gossip about being annoyed that he aggravated his injury again on international duty.

 

[afsoc4life]

Indeed. He does think he's good enough too.

You sure? Or it is more he is forced to play him because Dembele is not available ...

 

[Lemonade Money]

Again though, potential and development for the future. Bentaleb is still only 21 and was 20 when he was last getting regular PL football, Wanyama turns 25 this summer and was still fairly early in his Celtic career when he was Bentaleb's age. Bentaleb could easily end up much better than Wanyama long term.

We need to constantly move on and improve, and if you don't move on at the same pace you'll get dropped. Bentaleb has had two years under Poch. How long do you give him? You also need to freshen up the squad and bring in the odd new face or three, so some will have to make way.

 

[imcallingbullsh*t]

Well that's the whole fudgeing point! He's not good enough to cover for Dembele, and that's unfair? And play him further up? In place of who? Alli? Eriksen? Lamela? Son? Chadli? Kane? I think not, because they are all better than him. So I guess that'd be unfair...

I didnt say that he wasnt good enough to cover for Dembele, we did get to 5th with him and Bentaleb as a pair so they cant be useless.
More that we have moved on to playing 2 physically imposing CM's behind a 3 and that isnt Mason. However id be happy for him to take the FA and League cup games in that position.

However he started out further forward and he may well have a future there. This squad needs refreshing not a overhaul and swapping out 6 players isnt going to help, especially one who has lost his season to injury