Ryan Mason

[Gutter Boy]

Maybe I have this wrong but I'm sure you were a fan of both Fazio and Chiriches at Spurs?

At various times they were useful or progressions on what we had had previously. Dawson (one of my alltime favourite players) was clearly shot in his last year and Fazio was an affordable replacement. Chiriches was a great tackler and we needed a ballplaying CB to understudy Verts. I think he could have made it if he was mentally stronger.

I like to give all players a fair chance. I hate the fetishisation on human resources in football, rather than having patience and seeing what you've already got grow and improve.

 

[Poker Boy]

Yeh but I liked the old United model

Nurture what you have and add one/two players of finished quality per summer to push you on.

Thats in my opinion where we are/should be

But if you liked the old United model didn't that include the likes of Fletcher, O'Shea and Wes Brown, decent squad players that are going to play 20-30 matches a season, I would put Mason in the same category.

 

[Finney Is Back]

At various times they were useful or progressions on what we had had previously. Dawson (one of my alltime favourite players) was clearly shot in his last year and Fazio was an affordable replacement. Chiriches was a great tackler and we needed a ballplaying CB to understudy Verts. I think he could have made it if he was mentally stronger.

I like to give all players a fair chance. I hate the fetishisation on human resources in football, rather than having patience and seeing what you've already got grow and improve.

Fazio was poor.... He was slow, cumbersome and would often travel 20 yards forward out of position to try to win a ball and then leave us badly exposed when the opposition picked up the second ball. Chiriches made Fazio look good.

I love that we are growing a squad of players organically, but Pochettino has a certain set way of playing and currently with that set way of playing we do not have a single player in reserve who can adequately cover Harry Kane or Eric Dier in the fact that we do not have another specialist striker or holding midfield player in our squad. I don't think we can go into next season and play in the Champions League with those same deficiencies in the squad.

I like Bentaleb and hope that we keep him at the club, I think he could be decent cover for Dembele. We still need proper cover for Dier though. Imagine if we had been able to operate with both Dier and Wanyama when 2-0 up after an hour against Chelsea. Imagine if we could've done the same to shore things up after an hour against West Brom? Or after going 2-1 up at home to Arsenal? Imagine if we could've played both of them from the start in the away game against West Ham when we knew it would be an almighty scrap? All of this is before we consider that we are one injury to Dier away from our defence having no natural player to provide them cover in those central areas.

 

[Vega]

I thought he was useful backup that season. But we already have better back-up players than Wanyama now - i.e. Bentaleb

Isnt the whole mentality of buying a player to be back up part of the problem?

 

[Grays_1890]

But if you liked the old United model didn't that include the likes of Fletcher, O'Shea and Wes Brown, decent squad players that are going to play 20-30 matches a season, I would put Mason in the same category.

Fletcher before illness was MOM in Champions League Final or at least was Man Uniteds best player. Different Levels there to be fair.

 

[DubaiSpur]

We've had zero net spend for 16 consecutive windows since the stadium was first announced.

And we'll be lucky to raise £8m combined from our unwanted players (Yedlin and Fazio).

Personally I think we're in for a very quiet, and thankfully settled, summer.

Townsend's 12 million pounds remain unspent. Yedlin and Fazio might go for 8 million pounds, admittedly, but that makes 20 already. Bentaleb might raise quite a bit, if he's sold, and that could then free up room for Onomah to become Dembele's direct understudy/rotation option while also giving us money to spend on top-quality additions in terms of Dier and Kane's backup. If Mason is sold (not that I'd want that, but it's not impossible given his poor form due to his niggling injury), then we're looking at at least 10-12 million quid, which would be a benchmark for how much Bentaleb might bring us.

There's a lot of money available for us to spend, whichever way you cut it - even if Levy decides he doesn't want a net spend again. And personally, given that the 'human resources fetishization' has seen us bring in players like Toby Alderweireld, our Player of the Season (who, if I recall, you were dubious about) as a replacement for Fazio, and Son Heung-Min (who's scored three goals in the last two difficult games, and been our brightest spark while doing so) as an option on the wing...I think it's wise to keep on looking for quality players. If they're cheap, great. If they're expensive, go for them anyway if that's what Poch wants.

And believe me, I really don't think he wants to persist with inferior players for the sake of 'organic' growth as much as people like to believe he does. It didn't prevent him spending big at Southampton (smashing their transfer record, if I recall), and it won't do so here. Which I welcome - he's put more focus on youth players than any recent manager at the club, and he should be allowed leeway to spend on the players he feels are necessary to keep us competitive in the CL and the PL simultaneously.

Which, for all their merits, players like Mason and Carroll just don't seem to be, unfortunately. We've got great backup in some areas (GK, full-backs, CB with Wimmer, attacking midfield with N'Jie, Son and Chadli, who I think is a better player than people give him credit for being), but we could badly use quality reinforcements in others, DM/CM and up front in particular.

Which, personally, I think Poch recognises as well, which is also why he explicitly laid out his interest in players like Batshuayi and Umtiti earlier last month - players who would cost big fees if signed, and certainly not the sign of a man who intends on using Shayon Harrison and Carter-Vickers to plug the gaps.

 

[parklane1]

Which game are you referring to? You can cherry pick any games you want in isolation, but would honestly be confident in Bentaleb playing Dier's role? A big reason why we conceded so many goals last season was the two in front of the centre halves did not protect them enough. Didn't we concede 55 goals last season?

Could not agree more with this, I sit behind the goal and last season our CM was no where to be seen ( it was like the parting of the red sea) when we were being attacked and our back four had not help on most occasions. Neither Mason ot Bentalb have a defensive mindset and its something you have or not, Dier has it and Dembele is good at is as well but we need more options in this part of the field.

 

[imcallingbullsh*t]

Throwing Mason away now would be very unfair, same to Bentaleb. As should happen the structure of the team has changed and therefore the requirements of those players have changed. Both players and Pritchard have been pretty much lost to injury. Playing Mason as a replacement to Dembele is a bit unfair to him as the team doesnt function the same way anymore

Id move Mason further forward, Bentaleb id get out on loan as i think he needs game time.

We probably need a DM who can play CB i think we can find this to replace Dier
Replacing Dembele is more tricky as we need a CM who can carry the ball forward but also can put his foot in. Only other i can think of is Toure (a few years back)

 

[the dza]

Isnt the whole mentality of buying a player to be back up part of the problem?

I don't think so. Wimmer and Trippier were bought as backups, both have done very well. Wimmer you could say is one for the future, but he is clearly a backup player as it stands. Could include Davies too, he never really displaced Rose as first-choice.

If we have our 2nd choice midfielders and forwards giving us the same output as our 2nd choice defenders, we will be laughing.

 

[the dza]

I thought he was useful backup that season. But we already have better back-up players than Wanyama now - i.e. Bentaleb

There is no way that Bentaleb is better cover/competition for Dier than Wanyama. For a start, if Poch doesn't want to play the player, it makes him unsuitable for the squad. Bentaleb appears to have been frozen out (when fit).

 

[braineclipse]

I don't think so. Wimmer and Trippier were bought as backups, both have done very well. Wimmer you could say is one for the future, but he is clearly a backup player as it stands. Could include Davies too, he never really displaced Rose as first-choice.

If we have our 2nd choice midfielders and forwards giving us the same output as our 2nd choice defenders, we will be laughing.

Wimmer and Davies are clearly signed partly for their potential. As was Dier and Alli. As was Son.

Even Trippier signed more as a "backup" was only 24 when signed and still has the potential to step up from where he is.

There is no way that Bentaleb is better cover/competition for Dier than Wanyama. For a start, if Poch doesn't want to play the player, it makes him unsuitable for the squad. Bentaleb appears to have been frozen out (when fit).

Again though, potential and development for the future. Bentaleb is still only 21 and was 20 when he was last getting regular PL football, Wanyama turns 25 this summer and was still fairly early in his Celtic career when he was Bentaleb's age. Bentaleb could easily end up much better than Wanyama long term.

 

[the dza]

Wimmer and Davies are clearly signed partly for their potential. As was Dier and Alli. As was Son.

Even Trippier signed more as a "backup" was only 24 when signed and still has the potential to step up from where he is.



Again though, potential and development for the future. Bentaleb is still only 21 and was 20 when he was last getting regular PL football, Wanyama turns 25 this summer and was still fairly early in his Celtic career when he was Bentaleb's age. Bentaleb could easily end up much better than Wanyama long term.

Agreed, but we have still bought them to use as backups whilst we hope they can fulfil their potential. I don't think any of the 3 players are going to become first teamers any time soon. And as you say, Trippier is 24, so is most certainly viewed as a backup, rather than a long-term replacement for Walker (who is only 25/26 iirc?)

Re. Bentaleb - I think he is a different type of player to Wanyama, I don't think he is a naturally defensive minded player like Dier or Wanyama are. And my other point about him is that if Poch doesn't like the player, then he's no good for our squad. We need players who Poch wants to play and it seems Bentaleb is right out of favour, for whatever reason.

 

[braineclipse]

Agreed, but we have still bought them to use as backups whilst we hope they can fulfil their potential. I don't think any of the 3 players are going to become first teamers any time soon. And as you say, Trippier is 24, so is most certainly viewed as a backup, rather than a long-term replacement for Walker (who is only 25/26 iirc?)

Re. Bentaleb - I think he is a different type of player to Wanyama, I don't think he is a naturally defensive minded player like Dier or Wanyama are. And my other point about him is that if Poch doesn't like the player, then he's no good for our squad. We need players who Poch wants to play and it seems Bentaleb is right out of favour, for whatever reason.

But we haven't bought them only to use as backups. And that's important. It's important for how they feel about their role in the team and I think that hugely impacts what they do on the training ground and on the pitch when given a chance. We have a great squad harmony now and buying "backups" is not good for squad harmony I think.

Conclusions about Bentaleb are premature or speculative imo. I agree that if he's on his way out or Pochettino isn't planning on using him much we probably need a CM signing this summer.

 

[billyiddo]

i don't think we're in the market for backups either but outside of the defense i think there's a clear line between first XI players and the players covering their positions - the two players recently mentioned/linked (Batshuayi and Wanyama) would help close that gap in two important positions, positions i don't think we have suitable alternatives for (CF and Dier type CM)

 

[braineclipse]

i don't think we're in the market for backups either but outside of the defense i think there's a clear line between first XI players and the players covering their positions - the two players recently mentioned/linked (Batshuayi and Wanyama) would help close that gap in two important positions, positions i don't think we have suitable alternatives for (CF and Dier type CM)

I agree.

But a year ago Dier and Dembele were not exactly first choice in those midfield positions. I see no reason to think it impossible that Bentaleb can step it up again next season. Or that a younger and cheaper alternative to Wanyama might be just as good of an option. Dembele's (reported) ongoing injury problems makes it a slight worry though.

Seems almost certain that Bathuayi would make us stronger if we look at our starting 11 without Kane. But I don't think he necessary makes for a better impact or option player than Son if we're talking about Kane being in the team. That makes him a pretty clear backup. Again, not against it, but I also think there will be other, cheaper, potential options that can "close the gap".

 

[billyiddo]

I agree.

But a year ago Dier and Dembele were not exactly first choice in those midfield positions. I see no reason to think it impossible that Bentaleb can step it up again next season. Or that a younger and cheaper alternative to Wanyama might be just as good of an option. Dembele's (reported) ongoing injury problems makes it a slight worry though.

Seems almost certain that Bathuayi would make us stronger if we look at our starting 11 without Kane. But I don't think he necessary makes for a better impact or option player than Son if we're talking about Kane being in the team. That makes him a pretty clear backup. Again, not against it, but I also think there will be other, cheaper, potential options that can "close the gap".

re Wanyama - he'll be entering the last year of his contract this summer and by all accounts has shown no sign of wanting a new one - he's proven in this league and proven under our manager, afaic i think we'd do very well to find a better value signing this summer who is as suited to this league/way of playing as he is - he'll cover/compete for a position in our team which at the moment has no viable alternative - i don't see any of our current batch of CMs as Dier alternatives - of course like you say it can be that we develop our existing options to play this role, but i don't think it's a likely enough scenario to put the the discussion to bed, if we go down that route then we can just say the same for any potential signing, why sign anyone when we can just train the players here to be what we need? that argument can be saved for positions in which we are well stocked, namely defense and attack minded CM/AMs

 

[braineclipse]

re Wanyama - he'll be entering the last year of his contract this summer and by all accounts has shown no sign of wanting a new one - he's proven in this league and proven under our manager, afaic i think we'd do very well to find a better value signing this summer who is as suited to this league/way of playing as he is - he'll cover/compete for a position in our team which at the moment has no viable alternative - i don't see any of our current batch of CMs as Dier alternatives - of course like you say it can be that we develop our existing options to play this role, but i don't think it's a likely enough scenario to put the the discussion to bed, if we go down that route then we can just say the same for any potential signing, why sign anyone when we can just train the players here to be what we need? that argument can be saved for positions in which we are well stocked, namely defense and attack minded CM/AMs

About Wanyama, yeah he could be a good buy as you say. Didn't realize he was on his last year of his contract. If we want a like for like backup to Dier I suppose that would be a fine purchase. Personally I would prefer someone that was a bit more flexible that could play alongside either Dier or Dembele without us becoming really defensive in the process. But I can't say that I know of a player that will be available for a fair price and good enough to do that.

Disagree about positions where we are well stocked. Training young players we already have is not enough. To develop them, to integrate them into our system we must also give them time on the pitch and trust them. Just like we've trusted Kane, Alli, Dier etc. In areas where we are "well stocked" that "well stocked" part of the squad can very easily get in the way of actual player development of younger players. If we want to really develop Onomah for example he must be given a place in the squad in an area where we are not "well stocked" with players ahead of him in the pecking order. Of course he can overtake players in that pecking order, but that also means essentially relegating those players to the point of wanting to sell them. I think the approach of younger players having to prove themselves past a well stocked squad of first choice players and squad players is detrimental to player development. It's not how Alli and Dier have stepped up that's for sure.

If we want to develop Bentaleb as a DM for example. To long term make him a real option for the more holding role of the two central midfielders in our system I think we must give him a real place in the squad. I suppose we could say "he's not ready yet", ship him out on loan and bring in a Wanyama style backup to Dier. But if Bentaleb is then ready a year later he needs to be brought back and Wanyama perhaps sold or relegated to a less important backup/squad role. At some point, if we want to develop young players, we have to show that trust in them. Accept that short term they might be a worse option than some £10-15m players we could sign, but long term they have the potential to more than make up for it.

If Bentaleb is not the player we once thought he was and Pochettino is fed up with him we have two options for a new CM/DM signing. A squad player/backup option like I imagine Wanyama would be. Or someone younger with more potential that can grow and develop given a place in our squad. I don't think we can realistically do both. I might be selling Wanyama short here, he'll be only 25 this summer and could obviously be someone who steps it up given a chance. I haven't been hugely impressed by him, but I have a strong preference for deep midfielders who are better on the ball so might just be me.

 

[nelto]

Hopefully Dominic Ball can progress under Poch. At 20 years old and ready to step up and cover Dier. Fingers crossed.

 

[billyiddo]

About Wanyama, yeah he could be a good buy as you say. Didn't realize he was on his last year of his contract. If we want a like for like backup to Dier I suppose that would be a fine purchase. Personally I would prefer someone that was a bit more flexible that could play alongside either Dier or Dembele without us becoming really defensive in the process. But I can't say that I know of a player that will be available for a fair price and good enough to do that.

Disagree about positions where we are well stocked. Training young players we already have is not enough. To develop them, to integrate them into our system we must also give them time on the pitch and trust them. Just like we've trusted Kane, Alli, Dier etc. In areas where we are "well stocked" that "well stocked" part of the squad can very easily get in the way of actual player development of younger players. If we want to really develop Onomah for example he must be given a place in the squad in an area where we are not "well stocked" with players ahead of him in the pecking order. Of course he can overtake players in that pecking order, but that also means essentially relegating those players to the point of wanting to sell them. I think the approach of younger players having to prove themselves past a well stocked squad of first choice players and squad players is detrimental to player development. It's not how Alli and Dier have stepped up that's for sure.

If we want to develop Bentaleb as a DM for example. To long term make him a real option for the more holding role of the two central midfielders in our system I think we must give him a real place in the squad. I suppose we could say "he's not ready yet", ship him out on loan and bring in a Wanyama style backup to Dier. But if Bentaleb is then ready a year later he needs to be brought back and Wanyama perhaps sold or relegated to a less important backup/squad role. At some point, if we want to develop young players, we have to show that trust in them. Accept that short term they might be a worse option than some £10-15m players we could sign, but long term they have the potential to more than make up for it.

If Bentaleb is not the player we once thought he was and Pochettino is fed up with him we have two options for a new CM/DM signing. A squad player/backup option like I imagine Wanyama would be. Or someone younger with more potential that can grow and develop given a place in our squad. I don't think we can realistically do both. I might be selling Wanyama short here, he'll be only 25 this summer and could obviously be someone who steps it up given a chance. I haven't been hugely impressed by him, but I have a strong preference for deep midfielders who are better on the ball so might just be me.

there has to be a balance though, we have to remain competitive whilst developing our young players otherwise the ones which develop to the top level won't stick around for too long and we'll end up being a feeder club, this means buying in talent where we are short.

of course if Bentaleb is seen as a viable option to cover/compete with Dier then Pochettino will get my backing on that, but i don't think that's the case - did Pochettino stick Dier in there just to develop him or did he do it because he saw something in his game which suggested he could play that role? my guess is the latter

 

[braineclipse]

there has to be a balance though, we have to remain competitive whilst developing our young players otherwise the ones which develop to the top level won't stick around for too long and we'll end up being a feeder club, this means buying in talent where we are short.

I agree, and it's a good point.

I keep coming back to Atletico Madrid and Dortmund, but I really think they're good models for the kind of balance we need to find. Look at the trust Atletico have put in players like Gimenez, Saul and Oblak. (all between 25 and 37 league starts this season) at 21, 21 and 23 (young for a goalie) respectively. It's not that they had to do this. I still think part of the reason they let Alderweireld leave was because of how highly they rate young Gimenez - and getting him on the pitch in a lot of games is the way to develop him. That one actually almost ended up costing them the CL final when he gave away the penalty against Bayern. How's that for the right balance? Looking at Dortmund they've shown a lot of trust in Weigl and Ginter this season. In the past there have been plenty of others.

What I come back to is that we cannot expect to both develop young players currently outside our starting 11 and have backups for all of our first team players that are more proven. That approach just doesn't seem to work. The young player being integrated needs to be either first choice (like Dier was apparently made this season) or the "first choice backup" like Wimmer has been and Alli perhaps started the season as. Alli came on as a sub in our first 3 league games this season, including games against good opponents when we needed a goal. He was clearly being given a real place in the team. If we still had Sigurdsson for example around the place as that option off the bench Alli could easily have had a much more quiet season.

How do we strike the balance? I think with our current setup we could handle young talented backup players both for Dier/Dembele and for Kane. Though, again, I wouldn't mind someone more proven coming in either.