Roberto Soldado

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Official - Soldado

I don't think high pressing forces the opposition to lie deep with the back 4.

How deep opponents defend will be much more influenced by what they chose to do when we have control of the ball (in our own half). When teams decide to sit back and defend deep they will sit back and defend deep, if we sit back too without pressing them high up the pitch that usually won't change their approach. If opponents want to play a high line and pressurize high up the pitch themselves we can't really stop that by putting pressure on them when they have the ball.

One of the typical aims when pressing high is to force the opponents to play a long balls (preferably under pressure) that the defenders will then win most of the time. The problem for us with Soldado isn't when that happens to to our opponents, it's when it happens to us and he's the one that long ball is aimed for.

I agree that the Villa goal isn't a good example, it's a ball from us into that corner, right? There's never really a Villa player in control of the ball.

Totally disagree with your first statement. When done well, pressing from the front is designed so that when you win the ball back you are up the pitch in a dangerous area. When you are in possession of the ball and the team you are playing presses well, a few things tend to happen, the first thing being that your players who receive the ball from defence (i.e midfielders and attackers) are forced to receive the ball with their back to goal, a good pressing team will force them to play backwards toward their defence. As you continue to be pressed, as a defender the only space available to you is behind you and it forces you to drop deeper (to offer for a pass) until either you lose the ball (in a dangerous area) or as you have rightly pointed out, launch a long ball.

What we do with the ball is equally as important. But if we continually win the ball back in the oppositions half due to pressing high up the pitch, it is impossible for them to get out. If it is impossible for them to get out, then how is it possible for them to do anything other than lie deep no-matter whether they want to play a high line or not?

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Official - Soldado

Totally disagree with your first statement. When done well, pressing from the front is designed so that when you win the ball back you are up the pitch in a dangerous area. When you are in possession of the ball and the team you are playing presses well, a few things tend to happen, the first thing being that your players who receive the ball from defence (i.e midfielders and attackers) are forced to receive the ball with their back to goal, a good pressing team will force them to play backwards toward their defence. As you continue to be pressed, as a defender the only space available to you is behind you and it forces you to drop deeper (to offer for a pass) until either you lose the ball (in a dangerous area) or as you have rightly pointed out, launch a long ball.

What we do with the ball is equally as important. But if we continually win the ball back in the oppositions half due to pressing high up the pitch, it is impossible for them to get out. If it is impossible for them to get out, then how is it possible for them to do anything other than lie deep no-matter whether they want to play a high line or not?

If we're getting frequent turnovers in the opposing half as they try to play out from the back by pressing high up the pitch then the job is more or less done because as you say when you win the ball there it's in a dangerous area (or rather, often in dangerous situations). They will be unbalanced and we will create chances.

Yes, at that point the team opposing team will be deeper than if they lose the ball in our half, of course. But this isn't a problem when we have the chance for that turnover, because they will also be somewhat unorganized and we already have the ball in a dangerous area. That's the reason why teams often just end up playing it long when under pressure, because losing the ball in those situations is super dangerous for that team.

The problem with teams defending deep is when they are organized and we have (controlled) possession. Our pressing doesn't really influence that much at all, because our pressing doesn't happen when we have possession.

Perhaps for a team like Pep's Barca with 65+% possession that kind of pressing contributes to opponents defending deeply because they do it so well and keep possession for so long that teams rarely manage to get out at all. But most teams that press high up the pitch won't have (or maybe even want) those possession numbers.

For me two of the CL semi finals illustrates this. In the first Atletico Madrid - Chelsea game Chelsea were super happy sitting back deep and defending. For periods of that game AM pressed high up the pitch, other times they were more patient. Chelsea's approach didn't change, they were still happy conceding possession and just sitting deep regardless of what AM did.

In the second Bayern - Real Madrid game Real somewhat surprisingly came out of the blocks pressing Bayern way up the pitch. This did give Real some dangerous turnovers, but it didn't force Bayern to sit deep. When Bayern got forward they still pushed their team forward as before and when Real had controlled possession Bayern still played their usual strategy.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Official - Soldado

If we're getting frequent turnovers in the opposing half as they try to play out from the back by pressing high up the pitch then the job is more or less done because as you say when you win the ball there it's in a dangerous area (or rather, often in dangerous situations). They will be unbalanced and we will create chances.

Yes, at that point the team opposing team will be deeper than if they lose the ball in our half, of course. But this isn't a problem when we have the chance for that turnover, because they will also be somewhat unorganized and we already have the ball in a dangerous area. That's the reason why teams often just end up playing it long when under pressure, because losing the ball in those situations is super dangerous for that team.

The problem with teams defending deep is when they are organized and we have (controlled) possession. Our pressing doesn't really influence that much at all, because our pressing doesn't happen when we have possession.

Perhaps for a team like Pep's Barca with 65+% possession that kind of pressing contributes to opponents defending deeply because they do it so well and keep possession for so long that teams rarely manage to get out at all. But most teams that press high up the pitch won't have (or maybe even want) those possession numbers.

For me two of the CL semi finals illustrates this. In the first Atletico Madrid - Chelsea game Chelsea were super happy sitting back deep and defending. For periods of that game AM pressed high up the pitch, other times they were more patient. Chelsea's approach didn't change, they were still happy conceding possession and just sitting deep regardless of what AM did.

In the second Bayern - Real Madrid game Real somewhat surprisingly came out of the blocks pressing Bayern way up the pitch. This did give Real some dangerous turnovers, but it didn't force Bayern to sit deep. When Bayern got forward they still pushed their team forward as before and when Real had controlled possession Bayern still played their usual strategy.

I think we are talking about two different things here. But, we are kind of agreeing event though it's not immediately apparent. I agree that if a team chooses to play deep, they choose to play deep and there is nothing we can do to influence that with or without the ball (in-fact we could influence it without the ball, by not pressing and coazing them on to us, but that is another discussion).

So we can rule out your first 3 paragraphs, because I agree. If a team really wants to play deep, there's not much you can do without the ball to influence that.

Regarding your CL analogies, as I said above, if a team wants to sit deep (a la Chelsea) there's not much that can be done to influence that. With the Bayern analogy, when any team successfully goes forward in possession their back 4 will push up. The correct application of pressing further up the pitch is supposed to prevent them actually going forward, but if they get by and push into your final third, their defence will always push up.

 

[Jordinho]

Re: Official - Soldado

SPURS flop Roberto Soldado is a summer target of Spanish champions Atletico Madrid.

Diego Simeone’s La Liga outfit are resigned to losing top scorer Diego Costa to Chelsea, with a £30million deal reportedly agreed.

Once the sale of Costa is announced Atletico will turn their attention to finding a suitable replacement.

And Spurs hitman Soldado is the first name on their shopping list despite him having had a shocking debut season in N17.

The former Valencia striker, 28, cost the North Londoners a massive £26million – and was part of a large group of players brought in following Gareth Bale’s £86m exit to Real Madrid.

But despite a glowing reputation and prolific record in Spain, Soldado has proved an expensive misfit on English shores.

He scored only SIX Premier League goals last season – four of which were penalties – and by the end of a troubled campaign was reduced to a bit-part role on the Spurs bench.

That incredible dip in form led to him being left out of Spain’s 30-man preliminary World Cup squad when it was announced ten days ago.

Atletico, though, are unconcerned by Soldado’s alarming slide and believe that if they can get him for a cut-price £15m it would represent great business.

Coach Simeone does not have a big transfer kitty despite leading Atletico to their first league title since 1996 and into last night’s Champions League Final against rivals Real Madrid.

The Argentine, ironically tipped as a possible target for managerless Spurs, is convinced he can get Soldado firing again.

And there is no doubt the player would jump at the chance of ending his White Hart Lane nightmare and heading home.

More importantly, Spurs chief Daniel Levy will not stand in the way of the proposed transfer.

Having seen the club’s major signing of last summer fail so miserably, under-fire Levy is ready to listen to any offers of £15m or higher for the forward.

The Tottenham chairman normally plays hardball when off-loading players but this time he reckons cutting his losses on Soldado is the best option.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/380440/EXCLUSIVE-Flop-Sol-wouldn-t-Costa-fortune-Atletico-Madrid-eyeing-Tottenham-forward

 

[sc25]

Re: Official - Soldado

I hear a lot here say he is not suited to this league. Why do people say this exactly?

Well, if he doesn't produce this coming season (assuming he's still here), what other conclusions could you draw?

People have claimed that his problem was AVB and Sherwood and their systems. Well, that's no longer an issue (if it was one). With Poch or FDB arriving, amid much acclaim for their systems and as managers, I'd say Soldo is on the hot seat.

And if he's sold over the summer, that would be an indication to me that the new manager doesn't really rate him to begin with and they don't feel he's suited to their system and/or the PL.

 

[djp82]

Re: Official - Soldado

SPURS flop Roberto Soldado is a summer target of Spanish champions Atletico Madrid.

Diego Simeone’s La Liga outfit are resigned to losing top scorer Diego Costa to Chelsea, with a £30million deal reportedly agreed.

Once the sale of Costa is announced Atletico will turn their attention to finding a suitable replacement.

And Spurs hitman Soldado is the first name on their shopping list despite him having had a shocking debut season in N17.

The former Valencia striker, 28, cost the North Londoners a massive £26million – and was part of a large group of players brought in following Gareth Bale’s £86m exit to Real Madrid.

But despite a glowing reputation and prolific record in Spain, Soldado has proved an expensive misfit on English shores.

He scored only SIX Premier League goals last season – four of which were penalties – and by the end of a troubled campaign was reduced to a bit-part role on the Spurs bench.

That incredible dip in form led to him being left out of Spain’s 30-man preliminary World Cup squad when it was announced ten days ago.

Atletico, though, are unconcerned by Soldado’s alarming slide and believe that if they can get him for a cut-price £15m it would represent great business.

Coach Simeone does not have a big transfer kitty despite leading Atletico to their first league title since 1996 and into last night’s Champions League Final against rivals Real Madrid.

The Argentine, ironically tipped as a possible target for managerless Spurs, is convinced he can get Soldado firing again.

And there is no doubt the player would jump at the chance of ending his White Hart Lane nightmare and heading home.

More importantly, Spurs chief Daniel Levy will not stand in the way of the proposed transfer.

Having seen the club’s major signing of last summer fail so miserably, under-fire Levy is ready to listen to any offers of £15m or higher for the forward.

The Tottenham chairman normally plays hardball when off-loading players but this time he reckons cutting his losses on Soldado is the best option.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/380440/EXCLUSIVE-Flop-Sol-wouldn-t-Costa-fortune-Atletico-Madrid-eyeing-Tottenham-forward

He tweeted earlier something along the lines of the road to Madrid so could be off

 

[Rorschach]

Re: Official - Soldado

For me there is no mystery. For strikers it is all a confidence thing. Shanking the ball or mi****ting a ball that they would bury 100 times out of a 100 in practise has nothing to do with which league they are playing in. His confidence has been undermined by circumstance and what is on display now IMO is apprehension. He is a far far better striker than we have seen so far but I think he either needs a great pre-season or maybe even some good old fashioned luck to swing the football pendulum back in his favour now.

 

[DHSF]

Re: Official - Soldado

For me there is no mystery. For strikers it is all a confidence thing. Shanking the ball or mi****ting a ball that they would bury 100 times out of a 100 in practise has nothing to do with which league they are playing in. His confidence has been undermined by circumstance and what is on display now IMO is apprehension. He is a far far better striker than we have seen so far but I think he either needs a great pre-season or maybe even some good old fashioned luck to swing the football pendulum back in his favour now.

I agree.

He has been getting the chances and been missing them, id have been more concerned had the opposite been experienced but that clearly hasnt been the case. We also know he can finish and has been clinical in the past so in my view we must keep him and he will be super next season in my view. He will come back fully refreshed etc

 

[Rossi22]

Re: Official - Soldado

He was always the wrong signing on and off the pitch. We can't afford to be paying £26m for a 28yr old, we're not Chelsea. Sell Soldado and try and get Morata or Lukaku - players who fit our profile.

 

[DHSF]

Re: Official - Soldado

He was always the wrong signing on and off the pitch. We can't afford to be paying £26m for a 28yr old, we're not Chelsea. Sell Soldado and try and get Morata or Lukaku - players who fit our profile.

I dont think we paid £26m, im assuming we didnt anyways. Im sure it was around £15m-£20m with bonuses attached.

 

[Rossi22]

Re: Official - Soldado

I dont think we paid £26m, im assuming we didnt anyways. Im sure it was around £15m-£20m with bonuses attached.

We paid his release clause which was €30m, Valencia wouldn't have sold otherwise. I wish we hadn't, but we did.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Official - Soldado

I dont think we paid £26m, im assuming we didnt anyways. Im sure it was around £15m-£20m with bonuses attached.

It was £26m sadly. Money straight down the drain.

 

[Hotshot-Tottenham]

Re: Official - Soldado

We paid his release clause which was €30m, Valencia wouldn't have sold otherwise. I wish we hadn't, but we did.

It was £26m sadly. Money straight down the drain.

I'm gonna quote this again, just for balance:

"Even Soldado’s fee – at £26 million – is not as high as it appears, breaking down into £13 million plus a further £13 million if targets and incentives are met."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...ans-faith.html

 

[Rossi22]

Re: Official - Soldado

I'm gonna quote this again, just for balance:

"Even Soldado’s fee – at £26 million – is not as high as it appears, breaking down into £13 million plus a further £13 million if targets and incentives are met."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...ans-faith.html

The Telegraph is the only source to claim that, everywhere else says it's a straight £26m and given Valencia's insistance that he'd only leave for his release clause I find it hard to believe they'd accept half that.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Official - Soldado

I'm gonna quote this again, just for balance:

"Even Soldado’s fee – at £26 million – is not as high as it appears, breaking down into £13 million plus a further £13 million if targets and incentives are met."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...ans-faith.html

Shall i now link numerous articles saying otherwise?

 

[Jordinho]

Re: Official - Soldado

The Telegraph is the only source to claim that, everywhere else says it's a straight £26m and given Valencia's insistance that he'd only leave for his release clause I find it hard to believe they'd accept half that.

Valencia need their fans to think they got the whole fee up front, which is why we're very unlikely to see many sources claiming otherwise.

 

[NWND]

Re: Official - Soldado

Whatever the breakdown or money handed to Valencia in down payment the fees, wages, agent fees and bonuses/clauses probably make it one of the largest commitments we have undertaken as a club.

Whatever way you play it he is one of the biggest deals we've ever done as a club and as the poster above said he was the wrong signing on and off the pitch.

He just doesn't seem suited, physically, mentally or in terms of style of play.

He's going to be 29 next season so I think we best cut our losses this season and I think we will do while his stock is still relatively high. Another disappointing season and another year older and we will be getting offers of a quarter of what we paid at best.

It makes me wonder who was pushing for this signing?

Doesn't seem like a typical Levy/transfer commitee signing (Eriksen is the uber-Levy signing)

Damiao has been our top striker target of the last few years but was a target under Redknapp and was probably recommended by Bloomfield or via our links with internacional

We were inked to Benteke who seems another Levy/transfer committee type signing (ie pick the best young players of the teams below us a la Bent, Bentley, Bale etc)

We were linked to Osvaldo who I presume was Baldini's recommendation.

Did AVB push for Soldado?

 

[Yiddo]

Re: Official - Soldado

So every newspaper talk out of their **** regarding transfer but are 100% accurate when it comes to how much we pay for a player? There is no way that we paid a straight £26m, you can link as many articles as you like but I still will not accept it.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Official - Soldado

Valencia need their fans to think they got the whole fee up front, which is why we're very unlikely to see many sources claiming otherwise.

True. Also remember that they've had serious financial problems for years and years up until now when they finally got a new owner. This is the team that's sold Silva, Mata, Villa, Soldado and Banega in a relatively short period of time without spending much of that money. I think they were forced to sell last summer. They might have managed to get the full release clause fee, but they might very well not have.

Edit:

Shall i now link numerous articles saying otherwise?

The number of articles really isn't all that interesting, we know the media outlets essentially copy and paste each other.

If you think there are credible sources out there supporting that side of the argument, preferably post-dating the contradicting information that would be well worth posting.

 

[Baleforce]

Re: Official - Soldado

levy pay 26m for a 28yr old?

if you believe that i've got a bridge i can sell you