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Redknapp
- Thread starter Grays_1890
- Start date
If they're not good enough why were we so close to the top of the table in January and many points clear of 4th position?
Maybe you'll say Redknapp is the reason but then if you give him credit for the successes he has to take responsibilities for the failures. Yet our position in January proves that we are good enough to be up there and it is therefore not "unrealistic expectations" from the fans that we would stay there. Choking and bottling it at the end of the season and ultimately not being in the CL falls on Redknapp's shoulders. And don't say I'm not giving him credit for the successes because there are none - position in the table in January is not a success but it is indicative of the strength of the team.
There's so many circumstances there, form of players, injuries and of course the fixture list. It shouldn't be an excuse, but just look at Bolton. Their 10 first matches this season were games they got a total of 2 points from the season before. This time they got 3 I think. What is actually an improvement, although minimal, looks horrible because of the way it's come about. And of course such a poor run has devastating effects on the rest of their season.
What I'm saying is, if our results had been distributed differently across the season, nobody would be complaining (this much), but we had some extremely good spells and a really poor one which massively influences opinions and ambitions.
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Leeds Spur
Banned
Have my babies
Maybe failure is harsh but by definition we didn't achieve our goal since we didn't qualify for the CL. That is 'failing' in a sense. Also I think it's difficult to look at the season in a totality, that's just not the right way to look at it. Maybe in the beginning 4th wouldn't sound so bad, but in the middle of the season it would have especially if you said Chelsea would win the CL. As we go along there are new revelations, and we learn things that we didn't know before. I think some were surprised by our position in the league in January but to me it proved that we are good enough. The team doesn't have the confidence and togetherness yet imo to become great and achieve things but it is a new manager who must bring that mentality. I don't like people looking backwards and telling us how it should be because of how it USED to be. I want us to win and to be the best, despite the money other teams have. That is the whole point of it all. Because other teams have tremendous financial advantage we have to be smarter and take risks but that is part of the fun of it I think, and I hope the people at the club don't have the mentality of Harry and some of the folks who think he should stay, which is summed up by "we've never had it so good." That attitude needs to die now, it is a loser mentality and if we continue to think like losers we will continue to be losers. It would be nice if people focused on how it will be in the future and not how it has been in the past, because that has no bearing on what we do now.
I think signing Vertonghen will be a step in that direction, he's clearly got a winning mentality. Like VDV.
His most likely answer would be - because or Redknapp.
So to summarise - if we do well - all because of our manager
If we collapse and enter relegation form for 2 months (something often described as a 'blip' on here :lol: evdenthough it lasted around 8-10 weeks) - blame comes down to the players, fixtures, external factors, weather, pitches, fans, WAGs, form, AVB, City's money, Dantchev, etc. and almost zero blame goes towards Redknapp
Errrr, how does that work again?
Surely he can't give it if he's not prepared to take it. There is another word for that too
I think he deserves another season based on his consistency and the fact he appears to be genuinely liked by most players - all depending on a strong transfer season. However - if Levy is no prepared to sanction any more retirement packages to dying talentelss uselles cloggers - then perhaps he needs to go now so he can bring in his right man and trust him with the cheque-book
Leeds Spur
Banned
In a nutshell, fudge off Harry. Chancer of the highest order. Rosie could de a better job
The Moonlit Knight
Banned
What makes you say this? And I think you are very good at passing your opinion off as fact.
True but the fact is that in January we had played every team in the league one time and amassed 42 points, or 2.21 points per game. Since then, another 19 games later, playing the exact same teams, we picked up 27 points. We had more games away to the top teams in the second half of the season, but that means we had more "easy" games at home. Either way there is a 15 point difference and that is something tangible and needs to be accounted for.
We lost Lennon yes, but EVERY OTHER TEAM had to deal with injuries. United lost their captain for the entire season. Arsenal lost Wheelchair for the entire season. Chelsea lost Terry for months and won the CL without Ramires, Ivanovic, or Terry in the final. So blaming injuries or whatever is not a good excuse (as you point out), we always know there will be injuries it is something you have to plan for not something you pray doesn't happen.
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Leeds Spur
Banned
New board hero. Keep the objective analysis coming mate
Just from watching him play, listening to the things he says, that's probably why he is captain at Ajax. I could be wrong here but it is just my impression and I think that's why we are pursuing him (besides his obvious talent).
I'm not passing my opinion off as fact, I'm using facts (statistics) to support my opinion, which is different.
The Moonlit Knight
Banned
It was less than half a season. I am struggling to understand why people seem to be clinging to our good form as gospel, and our bad form as bad form? Surely people do understand the concept of a 38 game season, and that during that season it's quite possible for form runs, both positive and negative, to happen due to the way the fixture list presents itself etc?
I mean seriously, just look at the fixture list and circumstances.
We got turned over by the Manchester clubs, mainly because Modric's "head wasn't right" (fudging joke - and I can't believe our quickly he has been forgiven) and because we ridiculously fudged around with the Parker transfer. It left us with a powderpuff midfield against the two teams that would go on to dominate the division.
Then we went on this unbeaten 11 game run. This is where people claim is proof we were title contenders. During this run we played at home 5 times, and away 6 times. Our overall record was W10 D1. Very impressive, outstandingly so! Of course very few teams have ever managed to sustain a run like this throughout the entire season, including great teams far better than us. Why? Well it's easy. You just have to break down the fixture list and you'll see those 11 games were very kind to us in terms of the way the fixture list played out.
You should always look to win at home, regardless of the opposition. Any away win is a good result. Let's have a look at our home games first:
Liverpool, Arsenal, Villa, QPR, Bolton. What does that tell us? Well obviously it tells us that in the second half of the season we have to play those teams away from home too, which is obviously harder than playing them at home. That's logical and works for all teams. Wins over Liverpool and Arsenal were excellent but having seen the way Liverpool's season pan out maybe not as superb as we first though. Beating Arsenal was fantastic, and always is, but they were on a very poor run of form at the time. I don't want to detract from that though as they still have a better side and squad than us. Villa, Bolton and QPR? All three of them teams ended up in the relegation dogfight.
Away? Wolves, Wigan, Saudi Sportswashing Machine (the draw), Blackburn, Fulham, WBA. So yes the away run was fantastic of W5 D1 BUT again three of those teams ended up in the relegation dogfight. Fulham at the time were in a horrific run and people were saying Jol was going to get fired pre-Xmas. The Saudi Sportswashing Machine away draw was a very good result, as was the WBA win.
So when you break down that W10 D1 from 11 matches does it REALLY demonstrate title form? In terms of points per game? Definitely! But when you look at the set of fixtures you begin to realise that they weren't exactly tough.
We then lost to Stoke away (undeservedly and no shame in losing to them away as they're a tough team to beat at home) before another little mini-run.
Home games : Sunderland (W), Chelsea (D), WBA (W), Everton (W), Wolves (D), Wigan (W), Saudi Sportswashing Machine (W) - Another fantastic sequence of results, although the home draw against Wolves is very poor in isolation. We play two of the top six teams and come away with 4 points.
Away games : Norwich (W), Swansea (D), Emirates Marketing Project (L), Liverpool (D) - Only 1 win in four games, but considering the away games are much tougher than the ones from our excellent run of form still a decent return. And our first indication of comparity too because this run of games (including Stoke loss) meant that we had a record of W6 D4 L2.
Now the thing is the games we played during this second run of results were tougher than the 11 game superb streak. So much so that even though we got a lot less points on the board, I'd say that the results and form was just as good in real terms due to toughness of the away fixtures. Then we hit our bad run of results....
Home games : Man Utd (L), Stoke (D), Swansea (W), Norwich (L) - Had these results occurred away you'd have to put your hands up and say they were acceptable, but at home they were not. But what was really frustrating was that we didn't deserve to lose against Utd and we deserved to beat Stoke. But these things happen in football. Against Norwich Redknapp had a brain fart and didn't play a holding midfielder and we suffered as a result. We were second best all game and it was a disgrace.
Away games : Arsenal (L), Everton (L), Chelsea (D), Sunderland (D), QPR (L) - And THIS was the run that really cost us 3rd. And yet look at those teams. It's now pretty clear looking at the home and away games that the matches being played during our bad run of form are FAR tougher than those being played during our good run of form. The away games are much harder. Only QPR are relegation fodder (and that's a London derby). Two top six teams away from home, and two mid-table teams who had fantastic home records. Also when we played QPR, the one game there where you'd think we could sneak a win, who had beaten a lot of the top teams on their manor in the previous two or three weeks! It was a VERY tough run of away games in isolation, let alone taking into consideration the home form of those teams at the time. What made it worse is that our play deserved so much more. We outplayed all of those teams except Arsenal. But these are the fine margins we're dealing in. In a logical world you'd expect us to lose against Arsenal/Chelsea. Draw/Lose against Everton. Draw against Sunderland and QPR. So in reality we came away with 2pts where logic suggests we should have come away with 3. Hardly a collapse.
The above was blamed on tiredness, even though in hindsight it's simply clear we had a very kind early season fixture list post Manchester clubs and a very tough second half of the season fixture list. Up until? The final four games.
We play three relegation battling teams in the last 4 games and have a home game against a mid-table team. Logic would suggest an 8pt return (W2 home games D2 away games), but we actually turn Bolton over and end up with W3 D1. It's nothing special though as these are exactly the sort of fixtures we had during our easier run of games.
Conclusion : You look at every result in isolation and had they been jumbled up throughout the season no one would have battered an eyelid. The problem is our expectations were fuelled after an excellent run of results during a kind fixture list period. We then had a much tougher period of games, didn't pick up as many points and people think we threw it away. I don't think we did. I think we ended up where we deserved to end up.
Enter the Pitbull
Luke Young
[h=1]Harry Redknapp and Daniel Levy to end feuding as Spurs fight predators[/h]Tottenham 'odd couple' seem sure to join forces to keep Gareth Bale and Luka Modric after club miss out on Europe
Tottenham's Gareth Bale is watched by Harry Redknapp, who is anxious to keep the Welshman at White Hart Lane. Photograph: Philip Brown/Reuters
After heart surgery, crown court trauma, on-field stresses and the dance with England, Harry Redknapp might have thought the season had run out of ways to torment him. The final kick in the guts, though, was brutal in its novelty and execution and it promised a wide-ranging test of even his powers of recovery.
The Tottenham Hotspur manager watched it unfold from his seat at the Allianz Arena on Saturday night. Nine months of blood, sweat and tears had secured a fourth-placed Premier League finish and everyone knows how that is traditionally rewarded. Not this year. Chelsea's tumultuous Champions League victory over Bayern Munich saw them take England's fourth and final spot in next season's competition. Tottenham's consolation is the Europa League, a tournament that they treated with indifference this season.
It does not feel fair to Redknapp or anyone connected to Tottenham. Chelsea had trailed behind them in sixth place; the domestic league is supposed to be the true measure of a team's worth. But Tottenham know that they have only themselves to blame. When they beat Saudi Sportswashing Machine on 11 February, they were four points off the title pace and 10 clear of Arsenal and Chelsea in joint-fourth. There ought not to have been the scope for them to be felled by outrageous fortune.
Redknapp needs his holiday and he has plenty to ponder, not least the raft of stories in the pipeline about rival clubs ready to prey on his leading players, who are equally devastated to have missed out on Champions League football.
This is the first time since Redknapp joined Tottenham in October 2008 that it feels as though he has taken a step back and he could be forgiven for wondering what more he can do to fashion two in the right direction.
The 65-year-old has one year left on his White Hart Lane contract and so far there have been no talks with the chairman, Daniel Levy, about an extension. Tales abound about the friction between the pair – Redknapp himself describes theirs as an "odd couple" relationship – and each has the capacity to rub the other up the wrong way. It must be said, though, that clashes between managers who always want one more signing and chairmen who most assuredly do not are hardly unusual in the professional game.
Levy's hard bargaining is notorious and he has sometimes stood accused of being unreasonable. Players who want permanent moves away from Tottenham, having found that things have not worked out, have been driven to distraction by Levy's negotiating stances. Just talk to S?®bastien Bassong who, when on the brink of a transfer to Queens Park Rangers, watched Levy wake up in the morning and double the agreed fee.
Redknapp himself has personal experience of the Levy Hardball. In 2010, after he had led Tottenham to a fourth-placed finish, which was something to celebrate, the Dubai club Al Ahli made a big-money move for him. Levy's compensation demands, though, were even more eye-watering. It was no-go. Redknapp had been interested and the opportunity to work in the gulf continues to carry some appeal.
Levy, though, is precisely the man that Tottenham are going to need this summer and he will feel confident about retaining Luka Modric, as he did last time out, and the squad's other stars, chief among them Gareth Bale. The Wales winger is known to want Champions League football and, in light of the knock-on effect from Chelsea's triumph, his representatives will seek talks with Levy.
Almost every glamour club in Europe covets Bale yet Levy will highlight the three years that remain on his contract and refuse to sell, unless an extraordinary offer were to be forthcoming, in the region of ?ú60m.
It will be the same with Modric, whom Levy would not sell last summer to Chelsea for ?ú40m. On that occasion, the club's silent billionaire benefactor Joe Lewis stepped in to support him and reinforce the message that Tottenham were not a selling club. Modric is hamstrung by the four long years that remain on his deal. Transfer requests mean little to Levy.
If Tottenham can retain their prized assets, cut through all the unease and refocus, there is not the need for radical surgery to the squad, even if Emmanuel Adebayor will leave a hole up front if Levy cannot make his loan move from Emirates Marketing Project permanent. Adebayor earns ?ú170,000-a-week; Tottenham's wage ceiling is ?ú70,000. To borrow Redknapp's favourite phrase, it will be difficult. There is also the hindrance of not having Champions League football to put before recruits but this is hardly a new problem.
There are a host of Tottenham players who could command upwards of ?ú70,000 a week on the open market and the feeling is that Levy must sit down with Lewis, to discuss how to appease them and the future direction of the club.
Yet the suspicion is that he will keep everything which moves bolted down. Irresistible forces might swirl. Levy is the immovable object.
- David Hytner
- guardian.co.uk, Monday 21 May 2012 20.16 BST
- David Hytner
After heart surgery, crown court trauma, on-field stresses and the dance with England, Harry Redknapp might have thought the season had run out of ways to torment him. The final kick in the guts, though, was brutal in its novelty and execution and it promised a wide-ranging test of even his powers of recovery.
The Tottenham Hotspur manager watched it unfold from his seat at the Allianz Arena on Saturday night. Nine months of blood, sweat and tears had secured a fourth-placed Premier League finish and everyone knows how that is traditionally rewarded. Not this year. Chelsea's tumultuous Champions League victory over Bayern Munich saw them take England's fourth and final spot in next season's competition. Tottenham's consolation is the Europa League, a tournament that they treated with indifference this season.
It does not feel fair to Redknapp or anyone connected to Tottenham. Chelsea had trailed behind them in sixth place; the domestic league is supposed to be the true measure of a team's worth. But Tottenham know that they have only themselves to blame. When they beat Saudi Sportswashing Machine on 11 February, they were four points off the title pace and 10 clear of Arsenal and Chelsea in joint-fourth. There ought not to have been the scope for them to be felled by outrageous fortune.
Redknapp needs his holiday and he has plenty to ponder, not least the raft of stories in the pipeline about rival clubs ready to prey on his leading players, who are equally devastated to have missed out on Champions League football.
This is the first time since Redknapp joined Tottenham in October 2008 that it feels as though he has taken a step back and he could be forgiven for wondering what more he can do to fashion two in the right direction.
The 65-year-old has one year left on his White Hart Lane contract and so far there have been no talks with the chairman, Daniel Levy, about an extension. Tales abound about the friction between the pair – Redknapp himself describes theirs as an "odd couple" relationship – and each has the capacity to rub the other up the wrong way. It must be said, though, that clashes between managers who always want one more signing and chairmen who most assuredly do not are hardly unusual in the professional game.
Levy's hard bargaining is notorious and he has sometimes stood accused of being unreasonable. Players who want permanent moves away from Tottenham, having found that things have not worked out, have been driven to distraction by Levy's negotiating stances. Just talk to S?®bastien Bassong who, when on the brink of a transfer to Queens Park Rangers, watched Levy wake up in the morning and double the agreed fee.
Redknapp himself has personal experience of the Levy Hardball. In 2010, after he had led Tottenham to a fourth-placed finish, which was something to celebrate, the Dubai club Al Ahli made a big-money move for him. Levy's compensation demands, though, were even more eye-watering. It was no-go. Redknapp had been interested and the opportunity to work in the gulf continues to carry some appeal.
Levy, though, is precisely the man that Tottenham are going to need this summer and he will feel confident about retaining Luka Modric, as he did last time out, and the squad's other stars, chief among them Gareth Bale. The Wales winger is known to want Champions League football and, in light of the knock-on effect from Chelsea's triumph, his representatives will seek talks with Levy.
Almost every glamour club in Europe covets Bale yet Levy will highlight the three years that remain on his contract and refuse to sell, unless an extraordinary offer were to be forthcoming, in the region of ?ú60m.
It will be the same with Modric, whom Levy would not sell last summer to Chelsea for ?ú40m. On that occasion, the club's silent billionaire benefactor Joe Lewis stepped in to support him and reinforce the message that Tottenham were not a selling club. Modric is hamstrung by the four long years that remain on his deal. Transfer requests mean little to Levy.
If Tottenham can retain their prized assets, cut through all the unease and refocus, there is not the need for radical surgery to the squad, even if Emmanuel Adebayor will leave a hole up front if Levy cannot make his loan move from Emirates Marketing Project permanent. Adebayor earns ?ú170,000-a-week; Tottenham's wage ceiling is ?ú70,000. To borrow Redknapp's favourite phrase, it will be difficult. There is also the hindrance of not having Champions League football to put before recruits but this is hardly a new problem.
There are a host of Tottenham players who could command upwards of ?ú70,000 a week on the open market and the feeling is that Levy must sit down with Lewis, to discuss how to appease them and the future direction of the club.
Yet the suspicion is that he will keep everything which moves bolted down. Irresistible forces might swirl. Levy is the immovable object.
Ok here goes, I'll attempt to respond to all of it. First point is it's a 38 game season yes, but we played the same teams in each half, with the same players. So different results mean there is a variable unaccounted for. You seem to shrug it off as "form," but what is that supposed to mean? Bad form doesn't just happen there is a cause and explanation and there also needs to be a solution. Our bad form lasts far longer than other teams.
A lot of teams have not been turned over by the Manchester clubs with a lot lesser players than our's at their disposal. We should expect at this stage to be able to give anyone a game, even if we lose we shouldn't get turned over. Besides we lost both of these fixtures in 2012 as well, conceded 3 goals in both of those games again, plus got turned over in separate games by Arsenal and Chelsea. So I'm beginning to think the Modric saga was an excuse for those losses not the primary cause.
Responding to the last sentence - yes. That is what title challengers do. You beat what is before you, it was a fairly impressive run more because of our defensive stability imo because we still weren't scoring a LOT of goals. 1 in 4 teams in the league at least is part of the relegation fight as well. BTW I really, REALLY disagree that we don't have as good a team or squad as Arsenal, especially with them missing Wheelchair this season. I don't see how a Spurs fan could think that. We are much better! (Had to shorten this part btw to stay under character limit).
Not a lot I disagree with there, but you're not exactly showing that our results prove that we AREN'T good enough.
You keep talking about what we 'deserve,' but as I pointed out above we have had an abysmal record against the top 4 teams so unless you are saying we get unlucky in every single game against them how can you say we "deserve" to win them? Unless we get screwed by the referee, we deserve the result. Even if we do get screwed by the ref, we still sometimes deserve the loss. Away at Stoke people focused on Foy but not on what we were doing for the goals they scored and the lack of commitment we showed until the second half.
Well compare our results to Arsenal's results in those away games. They beat Chelsea, Everton, and Sunderland away. Like us, they lost to QPR away. When you look at a run of tough games, you still don't expect us to lose ALL of them. Most teams would pick up a few wins, a few draws, and a few defeats. Thanks to Redknapp's tactical idiocy, we lost most games with only 1 win in 9 iirc.
I would expect us to beat all 3 relegation teams. Chelsea and United scored 5 goals away at Bolton for instance. The one game we absolutely needed to win, and we knew would put us into 3rd, was Aston Villa away. And we drew. What were the results of other teams at Villa Park? Well Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, City, and United all won, so all our rivals did what we could not, even though we should have had additional motivation to do it knowing what it meant.
You seem to be trying to skew it a little bit here. We played the same 19 other teams twice. In the first 19 games, we took 42 points. In the 2nd 19, we took 27. They are the same teams, and approx. the same number of games home and away. If we played tougher away games, that means we had easier home games, so it should nearly balance out in the end.
For example - United first half, 45 points, second half 44 points. City 45 points, 44 points Arsenal - 36 points, 34 points. Chelsea - 34 points, 30 points. Saudi Sportswashing Machine 30 points, 35 points. Spurs 42 points, 27 points. It's the only one that stands out. Do you not see that this is problematic?
parklane1
Tony Galvin
I never said i would blame him for walking out, but that is what he does when things start to turn.
thfcsteff
George Hunt
I think it's important to look at the details. Against Arsenal, we went into the game playing 4-4-2 because we'd beaten Newcash at home with the same formation 5-0. Someone had forgotten that
a) Newcash were missing Cabaye and Tiote
b) Pardew admitted fudging up with such an open formation
c) Arsenal away are not Newcash sans two big players at home.
I think everybody expected 4-5-1...even at 2-0 up, Harry still had the chance to switch the tactics to stifle the goons. He didn't take that chance...
Against Everton we only played for 45 minutes, against Chelsea we were very good and unlucky not to win, against Sunderland we lacked the invention to ice that lock and against QPR we were disorganized and generally very poor. In ALL of these games, the simple tactic of telling Gareth Bale to stay on the left might well have been the difference. The devils' in the details...I could go on but I'll spare us all...
An interesting post BTW, probably deserves an essay in response but have to get going unfortunately.
GGyid
Luke Young
Good read and a good perspective, everyone feared our fixture run through Feb and March and so it transpired. (but the key moment of the season for me was Defoe's miss at Emirates Marketing Project)
thfcsteff
George Hunt
Agreed on all this...let me further add with regards to Villa that quite aside from not having worked out that a point was no good to us and taking a gamble, when he DID bring on a holding player to release someone further forward, he brought on a man who was half-fit and who (when tired) holds the ball too long, versus Livermore who is a tidy and progressive/forward-thinking passing holding midfielder. My horror as I craned my neck to see exactly how far into the corner of our end of the pitch Parker had cul-de-sac'd himself was palpable...
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Shocking stat.
