Ratings v Sunderland

[braineclipse]

You miss the point. it is Modric's job (not Parkers or Sandros ) to be creative, make things happen. My gripe with him is that in these type of games he rarely if ever imposes himself. He doesnt run at teams, commit defenders, play incisive balls, make crucial assists, score match winning goals. With two sitting midfielders,and therefore shorn of his defensive duties, he must become the heartbeat of the side and make things happen further up the field. Unfortunately for us, he just doesnt.

Again, I am sick of asking when he has turned one point into three or no points into one from a KC or goal, particularly in the last quarter of games. No one seems to be able to answer this question. Today was just another day he failed to deliver for us in a tight game.

The irony of you saying that you are sick of asking a question in the same post you ignore my questions to you. Feel free to answer those in your next post.

You say I miss the point. But as I have pointed out, several times, I don't see him as a Silva-type player at all. He is at his best in a slightly deeper role, being the playmaker, dictating play, bringing the ball from the back and midfield into the final third, releasing others in dangerous positions. If you want a decisive point how about the 1-0 goal against Swansea? His pass released Bale, who then crossed, ended up with VdV who scored. Of course that pass doesn't show up in any goals or assist stats. Crucial pass though.

Since it seems you want a stat: http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/2935/Stages/5476/PlayerStatistics/England-Premier-League-2011-2012

As far as I know this "rating" is based only on stats and ranks him 4th in the league, you can even go in on "Offensive" and it will tell you that Modric makes 2.6 of what they classify as "key passes" per game, as many as Bale and only beaten by Mata and Silva in the entire league.

Now, all of this is in no way definitive, and not the reason I rate him. But it does at least indicate that he does contribute to our success, from a purely stats and numbers point of view.

 

[Pirate55]

The irony of you saying that you are sick of asking a question in the same post you ignore my questions to you. Feel free to answer those in your next post.

You say I miss the point. But as I have pointed out, several times, I don't see him as a Silva-type player at all. He is at his best in a slightly deeper role, being the playmaker, dictating play, bringing the ball from the back and midfield into the final third, releasing others in dangerous positions. If you want a decisive point how about the 1-0 goal against Swansea? His pass released Bale, who then crossed, ended up with VdV who scored. Of course that pass doesn't show up in any goals or assist stats. Crucial pass though.

Since it seems you want a stat: http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/2935/Stages/5476/PlayerStatistics/England-Premier-League-2011-2012

As far as I know this "rating" is based only on stats and ranks him 4th in the league, you can even go in on "Offensive" and it will tell you that Modric makes 2.6 of what they classify as "key passes" per game, as many as Bale and only beaten by Mata and Silva in the entire league.

Now, all of this is in no way definitive, and not the reason I rate him. But it does at least indicate that he does contribute to our success, from a purely stats and numbers point of view.

What point of yours havent I answered - apart from your assertion that Modric was good today?

 

[braineclipse]

What point of yours havent I answered - apart from your assertion that Modric was good today?

So, out of our midfield 5 and striker, or midfield 3 and front 3 if you prefer, who were better than Modric today in your opinion.

If Modric had "no creativity at all", how would you describe the creativity levels of Parker and Sandro? I'm quite curious about this one. Were they in the negative? Please, I really do wonder.

Seeing as Sandro and Parker supposedly played the deeper roles and seeing how we like and tried to build from the back, how many times did either for them make a forward pass into space between Sunderland's defenders and midfielders where we could cause some problems?

 

[Pirate55]

The irony of you saying that you are sick of asking a question in the same post you ignore my questions to you. Feel free to answer those in your next post.

You say I miss the point. But as I have pointed out, several times, I don't see him as a Silva-type player at all. He is at his best in a slightly deeper role, being the playmaker, dictating play, bringing the ball from the back and midfield into the final third, releasing others in dangerous positions. If you want a decisive point how about the 1-0 goal against Swansea? His pass released Bale, who then crossed, ended up with VdV who scored. Of course that pass doesn't show up in any goals or assist stats. Crucial pass though.

Since it seems you want a stat: http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/2935/Stages/5476/PlayerStatistics/England-Premier-League-2011-2012

As far as I know this "rating" is based only on stats and ranks him 4th in the league, you can even go in on "Offensive" and it will tell you that Modric makes 2.6 of what they classify as "key passes" per game, as many as Bale and only beaten by Mata and Silva in the entire league.

Now, all of this is in no way definitive, and not the reason I rate him. But it does at least indicate that he does contribute to our success, from a purely stats and numbers point of view.

I am not questioning his ability just his effectiveness. Noone in the front 6 played well today, but the key to midfield control is a playmaker that delivers all the things you mention above. quite simply Modric didnt do it today. And more often than not doesnt do it in these type of tight games - hence we struggle to beat teams that park the bus.

 

[Joesh]

I guess with Modric, it like the saying - those to whom much has been given, much is expected. The same could be said of Bale. They will receive more criticism for playing just ok.

 

[Jimmy-g]

Modric does not create, Modric does not get forward and score goals, Modric is not in the team for his defensive capabilities, it is a puzzle, how can we get more from him, I am not knocking Modric but if he starts play from the back then why the fudge does VDV drop in there all the time, my prefered pairing if fit would be Huddlestone and Parker playing with two wide men, playing with two holders means that Modric and VDV should create more than what they do.
Just thoughts not criticism.

 

[Pirate55]

I guess with Modric, it like the saying - those to whom much has been given, much is expected. The same could be said of Bale. They will receive more criticism for playing just ok.

agree with this

 

[braineclipse]

I am not questioning his ability just his effectiveness. Noone in the front 6 played well today, but the key to midfield control is a playmaker that delivers all the things you mention above. quite simply Modric didnt do it today. And more often than not doesnt do it in these type of tight games - hence we struggle to beat teams that park the bus.

I guess we just see the game quite differently.

You're right, Modric didn't do all the things I mentioned above, but for me at least, that doesn't mean it's his fault. I could go on some long winded rant about this, but I don't see the point. I didn't think the other players provided enough movement or passing options, I don't think Parker and Sandro passed the ball anywhere near well enough to keep up our tempo and bypass opponents, Bale was stuck in the wrong positions, unavailable for too much of the game, Ade struggled to get involved, Ekotto (who I rate highly) had a for him average game going forward and Walker didn't do much either.

He is a playmaker, not superman or Leo Messi, he needs movement around him, he needs decent passes delivered to him from time to time.

I guess I see and appreciate things in Modric that you do not see or appreciate. If I'm seeing things that aren't there or you aren't seeing things that are there we'll just have to agree to disagree on cause I'm quite convinced it's there, you seem quite convinced it's not and we're getting nowhere convincing each other.

 

[braineclipse]

I guess with Modric, it like the saying - those to whom much has been given, much is expected. The same could be said of Bale. They will receive more criticism for playing just ok.

I agree. And I certainly expect more going forward from Modric than Parker for example. I still think he was our best player going forward today though.

 

[bookhouseboy]

You miss the point. it is Modric's job (not Parkers or Sandros ) to be creative, make things happen.

It's Modrics job to take advantage of clever without-the-ball-movement from the rest of our players, but when we overload the middle and end up with only Ade ahead of Modric as often as we did today something is very wrong with the offensive gameplan (if we have such a thing, mostly I really wonder...); creativity is to find moving players and set them up, but if players behave as flagpoles...
VdV dropping deep all the time ÔÇô wtf is he doing back with our centrehalfs as often as he does - and Bale all over the place again is just a sad sight.

Modric is exceptional in allowing pressure onto himself and creating space for teammates, space that's there to be taken with only somewhat cleverness in movements. When we end up with only one player ahead of Modric, or Bale and VdV 10 yards next to him in our own half, it's a problem ÔÇô and it's one created by Redknapp, VdV and Bale

 

[charlietheyid]

Friedel 6 Not troubled

Walker 6 Busy against McLean but did well enough

Gallas 8 Very important at the back

Kaboul 7 No Problem

Assou ekotto 7 Good game

Parker 4 Not good today, poor passing

Modric 6 Didnt lose the ball as much as the other players but not his greatest game

Sandro 5 Got stuck in but poor on the ball. Having said that, when he makes a mistake he tends to recover

Van der Vaart 5 Not in the game

Bale 5 Not able to express himself, no space

Adebayor 4 Nothing today

 

[Rossi22]

Parker completed 101 of 108 passes.

 

[scaramanga]

Parker completed 101 of 108 passes.

There's all kinds of completed passes. One where the recipient has to check his run, turn around and stretch for the ball is not a good one. Neither is playing someone into trouble or needlessly passing to the back 4 when we need to attack.

 

[mudshark]

It's Modrics job to take advantage of clever without-the-ball-movement from the rest of our players, but when we overload the middle and end up with only Ade ahead of Modric as often as we did today something is very wrong with the offensive gameplan (if we have such a thing, mostly I really wonder...); creativity is to find moving players and set them up, but if players behave as flagpoles...
VdV dropping deep all the time ÔÇô wtf is he doing back with our centrehalfs as often as he does - and Bale all over the place again is just a sad sight.

Modric is exceptional in allowing pressure onto himself and creating space for teammates, space that's there to be taken with only somewhat cleverness in movements. When we end up with only one player ahead of Modric, or Bale and VdV 10 yards next to him in our own half, it's a problem ÔÇô and it's one created by Redknapp, VdV and Bale

I find myself agreeing with this view. The lack of pattern and the over-reliance on individual brilliance has been discussed before, but I thnk we've got a more general issue in terms of initiative. It's most obvious in the collective sense, which I think is one of the main reasons we struggle in particular to break down resolute defences, but it's also there in other aspects of our game, like when a second ball is there to be won and none of our players are ever anywhere near it. There were a couple of occasions today when the ball got looped up in the air and ended up dropping somewhere around the Sunderland penalty spot. I noticed four or five of our players all doing the flagpole thingÔÇöstanding around the fringes, open-mouthed, just watching it come down and get hoofed away, instead of moving towards the space and making it harder for the defenders.

 

[liquid_football]

Even if we had Xavi or Iniesta today in the team,it wouldn't have changed a thing.I consider Modric to be one of the best CM's in the world,behind the likes of Xavi,Xabi Alonso and Iniesta.But then again,when you see how much space the Barcelona and Real players create for themselves,there is no doubt in my mind that Modric would be able to get even more goals and direct assists for himself in their teams.He is already the 3rd best chances creator in the premier league,only behind Mata and Silva who play further up the pitch.

Pirate55,I am amazed how someone can have so much hate for a player,especially considering Modric's ability and dedication.If you dont rate him,fine,say it once,say it twice,but keep on going for weeks how you dont rate him,giving 1 argument which falls in the water every single time and being so extremly stubborn is really beyond me.

The huge majority of the Spurs fans know what Modric brings to the team and your constant moaning about him here isn't really gonna change their opinions.

 

[Mosquito_Coasting]

That's the deepest I can remember a team (Sunderland) being since Chelsea v Barca at Camp Nou under Hiddink. What the fudge where we supposed to do? Disagree we controlled the game though, Sunderland looked more dangerous because we gave them the ball in dangerous areas over and over (Sandro especially) and just generally are not as tight defensively.

 

[Fuego]

Friedel - 6 Nothing to do. At least he doesn't hoof it whenever the ball is passed back to him.

Walker - 6.5 Stopped a goal, had to do a lot of work to make us look like we had two wings.
Gallas - 6.5 I've missed him, he played well.
Kaboul - 6.5 His usual awesome self, did well to take on their left back in the second half, maybe he wants to play on the right wing the next time Lennon is injured? I'd trust him to play DM instead of Sandro or Parker if Harry wants to play with 2 DMs in future.
BAE - 6.5 Close shot from long range, epic hair... Gave the ball away a couple of times.

VdV - 6 Not spectacular. A good couple of tackles though, one or two stray passes.
Sandro - 4.5 Wasted his booking on a silly moment, it would have been better spent catching Cattermole a bit late. Like Friedel, he didn't have much to do in his usual role, so I have to rate him based on his forward play.... He did have a potentially bad moment when he might have let someone 1v1 with Friedel (unless Parker managed to cover).
Parker - 5 At West Ham he used to be able to pass and score goals, he was a one man team, a one man army. His passing wasn't great today, but defensively he was fine, there wasn't much to defend.
Modric - 6 Didn't do anything spectacular.
Bale - 6. Nice last minute run, shame about the two footed tackle. Their right back was probably MotM, Bale couldn't breeze past him. Should have done better with his free header.

Adebayor - Can I give him an N/A? Did we pass to him at all? I don't remember him doing much wrong, I just don't remember him getting the ball very often.

Subs:
Lennon - 7. It was nice to see him take on their left back, put in a cross, try to make stuff happen.
Saha - N/A
Defoe - 5 Lennon passed the ball to Defoe's foot, it hit his foot, he didn't seem to notice. If he'd have hit the ball and it had gone out of the ground then he'd have got an N/A, but my one memory of him on the pitch (not the 5 minutes of waiting to go on) was of this one moment that added to the frustration. He didn't have a shocker, so this may seem harsh, but I expect JD to be aware at all times and to have shot when the ball was passed to him, not to have the ball bounce off the side of his foot.



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As for the discussion above about Modric. Modric does two main things: Firstly he gives us 5% extra possession. Secondly he assists the assists. He can assist/score/tackle but he is our heart, the metronome of beats that lets us play how we play. He is our Xavi, he defines our style. He dictates the pace of matches, controls the flow and is our identity.

There are other players that are more Spurs, I'm not saying Modric is a reflection of us, I'm saying he's the only player we have other than Hudds that can make Spurs a reflection of him.

Sadly, players can tire, David Silva has... Modric hasn't been at his best for a while, but he's one of the best in the world at what he does. He never gets a break, when was the last time he missed a game? That said, he had a shot today that was on target, if it had gone in, we wouldn't be having this discussion, so there are always fine lines.

 

[BeachBoy]

we really miss the Hudd in my opinion,, I think his contribution to the effectiveness is under rated

 

[totman]

There's all kinds of completed passes. One where the recipient has to check his run, turn around and stretch for the ball is not a good one. Neither is playing someone into trouble or needlessly passing to the back 4 when we need to attack.

But if he only completed 50 of 108 passes, no doubt you would beat him with those stats, and use them as your Gospel.

 

[braineclipse]

But if he only completed 50 of 108 passes, no doubt you would beat him with those stats, and use them as your Gospel.

That would be pretty bad, and I think you would agree if that was the case.

Scara made the point that pass completion and a high number of passes on it's own doesn't have to be a great thing. It's like the "Oh, Leon Britton is the best passer in Europe, look at this one stat - he's ahead of Xavi" flimflam the media came out with not long ago.

But if you want more stats, of his passes he completed 8/10 into the final third. By comparison Modric completed 16/29, VdV 21/29. Despite both of them having quite a few fewer passes than Scotty.

If you want to argue against the point that his passes aren't as well weighted, or as accurate as the passes some of our other players make I don't know what to say. But I don't think you hold that opinion.

When coupled with Sandro completing 5/8 passes into the final third we get what we got. Loads of possession, very little of it in the final third and relatively few chances and in my opinion legitimate criticism of what that central duo did on the ball.