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Putin & Russia

Lilbaz said:
Lets reverse it. Say scotland declared independence next year. They then announced an alliance with russia. Then russia wanted to put a military base outside edinburgh.

You really think the british or american governments would allow that?
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Pick any democracy in the world and that would be fine.

Your example absolutely wouldn't be allowed. Not because of Scotland or its location but because Russia is a dictatorship run by a closeted Napoleon complex.
 
I’m very aware of the diplomatic issues of sending forces in to Ukraine, but I can’t help but get angry at the lack of help we, EU, NATO, etc are giving to Ukraine, we haven’t even gone full sanctions yet due to a few EU members (SWIFT). Russia should have the world status of North Korea by now.

load up troops on the Polish and Romanian borders to constantly feed in arms and supplies or something?! I keep hearing of arms being sent over to Ukraine but is it enough currently to even scratch the surface? One thing for sure is that, as of last night at least, Zelensky thinks they’ve been left to fight this alone and I don’t blame him for thinking that.
 
scaramanga said:
Pick any democracy in the world and that would be fine.

Your example absolutely wouldn't be allowed. Not because of Scotland or its location but because Russia is a dictatorship run by a closeted Napoleon complex.
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The us is an oligarchy run by the military industrial complex, the fossil fuel industry, wall street and (surprised me when aoc said it) big ag.
 
scaramanga said:
So NATO has to act against the wishes of those who wish to join because Russia believes something that isn't true?

This is getting beyond ridiculous.
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NATO hasn't acted like that at all, they have incorporated everyone so far who wanted to join and was suitable. The only area which is hotly contended is Ukraine, not for any good reasons either because they are simply a pawn for both the East & West and their viewpoints on why they want the land.
(Not that Russia hasn't complained from the outset about NATO expansion, Yeltsin gave a very stark expression of it in 97)

The only ridiculous part is your unwillingness to have the slightest modicum of understanding from a Russian perspective of why they don't want Ukraine in NATO.
Not that this gives Putin any right to do what he is doing, that is utterly abhorrent, but you have to understand just why we have reached this point and that the West has its own blame to take from this too.

Instead of playing games on here, take to time to go and sit down with some Russians who have this view and listen/understand their opinions as to why. Maybe you'll be more inclined to take it onboard from them.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Where are the wonderful EU in all this bar protecting sales of Gucci and Diamonds? I thought they were the beacon we all look up to?
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I wouldn't agree with anyone saying the EU are the beacon we should all look up to.
That kind of sycophantic approach towards any governance function is a scary position.

I actually did address this however in a response to Danish. The crux of it was about understanding the different approaches and experiences of war in Europe that the UK and US has compared to Western mainland Europe and then central Europe.

Re: Gucci and Diamonds. I've only just heard the top line about it. And it's unsavoury. It's also not exclusive. In wartime Governments have the horrible choice of protecting home interests Vs the interests of somewhere far away.
Italy are not alone in this. The UK has been doing it for years - the city of London has significantly funded Putin. More could and should have been done in the past. Italy are just not as smart at doing it.

All that said, this could be a watershed moment for the major powers to adapt to modern warfare. NATO is a useful tool, but limited. Modern warfare is economic and cyber as much as military - so a change needs to be made about how NATO members (whether operating as part of NATO or as seperate sovereign states or as collaborative blocs) tackle conflict response.
 
I have to say, Johnson certainly seems to be being a lot more statesman like in all of this.
His messages to Ukraine online were excellent.
 
Trixster said:
NATO hasn't acted like that at all, they have incorporated everyone so far who wanted to join and was suitable. The only area which is hotly contended is Ukraine, not for any good reasons either because they are simply a pawn for both the East & West and their viewpoints on why they want the land.
(Not that Russia hasn't complained from the outset about NATO expansion, Yeltsin gave a very stark expression of it in 97)

The only ridiculous part is your unwillingness to have the slightest modicum of understanding from a Russian perspective of why they don't want Ukraine in NATO.
Not that this gives Putin any right to do what he is doing, that is utterly abhorrent, but you have to understand just why we have reached this point and that the West has its own blame to take from this too.

Instead of playing games on here, take to time to go and sit down with some Russians who have this view and listen/understand their opinions as to why. Maybe you'll be more inclined to take it onboard from them.
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I understand perfectly why Russia doesn't want Ukraine in NATO - they've demonstrated that over the last few days.

Which is really the crux of it. Russia knows it can't invade and steal land from NATO members so it wants as few countries as possible to join.
 
monkeybarry said:
I have to say, Johnson certainly seems to be being a lot more statesman like in all of this.
His messages to Ukraine online were excellent.
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He can read out words from an autocue when the crisis is overwhelming enough for the idiot Number 10 spads to cede control to expert speechwriters in the FCDO. That doesn’t make the shifty narcissistic clam a statesman.
 
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