Putin & Russia

[SpurMeUp]

Oh Cahh-nahh-dahh. That's how Canadians sing it. Brits - well, Engerlish, really - add the errr sound at the end. Same with Jamaic-errr.

MLS is short for Major League Soccer. No one would ever say Thuh Major League Soccer.

You can comfortably add the definite article to 'the NBA', 'the NHL' or 'the NFL'. but never to Major League Baseball.

Nice to have the important things covered tonight. Appreciated

 

[johnola]

Had Ireland requested troops from the Soviet Union when England was controlling Ireland, would that have been all fine too?

Impossible. Ireland had gained independence from the (note) United Kingdom before the Soviet Union was founded.

Furthermore, the Irish were fighting their war of independence when the United Kingdom and Russia were allies fighting the Kaiser and restoring the peace.

Have a look at events called WW1/The Great War and WW2 they are much more relevant to European history than bloody Irish independence.

Have a look at Britains role in those campaigns and our post war role and learn yourself that the British have been striving to be a force for good in the world for a long long time.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Impossible. Ireland had gained independence from the (note) United Kingdom before the Soviet Union was founded.

Furthermore, the Irish were fighting their war of independence when the United Kingdom and Russia were allies fighting the Kaiser and restoring the peace.

Have a look at events called WW1/The Great War and WW2 they are much more relevant to European history than bloody Irish independence and Brexit.

Have a look at Britains role in those campaigns and our post war role and learn yourself that the British have been striving to be a force for good in the world for a long long time.

I don't dispute that the British or English have been a force for good for the past 100 years or so. My theoretical question to Scara was simple, when British troops were in Ireland which was the case from '69 to 2007 would it have been okay to ask the Soviets to lend a hand in England's back yard?

 

[scaramanga]

Who said Putin was okay?

You claimed that this case was different and that the West shouldn't be arming or assisting Ukraine.

 

[SpurMeUp]

You claimed that this case was different and that the West shouldn't be arming or assisting Ukraine.

Totally different then from saying Putin is okay.

 

[scaramanga]

Had Ireland requested troops from the Soviet Union when England was controlling Ireland, would that have been all fine too?

They had every right to request help from anyone they wanted. Once that request was made it would have been acceptable for any democracy to assist.

 

[scaramanga]

Totally different then from saying Putin is okay.

He's ok/his actions are ok, potato/potarto

 

[scaramanga]

Our troops, US troops, NATO's troops it doesn't matter - anyone's troops outside of Ukraine and you're dangerously close to kissing your arse goodbye under the shadow of a mushroom cloud.

Weaponry etc. just about passes, but boots on ground - dear GHod I hope not, not just for those involved (ex forces myself) but for the ramifications that could unfold from it.

I hope I'm wrong but I don't think anything other than military force will stop Putin.

We could always give Ukraine a few nukes. That would test Putin's resolve without getting our forces involved.

 

[SpurMeUp]

He's ok/his actions are ok, potato/potarto

Your efforts to create a straw man are impressive. But nowhere did I say his actions are okay either.

 

[SpurMeUp]

They had every right to request help from anyone they wanted. Once that request was made it would have been acceptable for any democracy to assist.

Just to clarify, it would have been acceptable for Soviet troops to come into Ireland to help its independence? Thankfully this didn't happen, can you imagine the fallout and maybe war it could have caused? Just look at what occurred on America's doorstep during the Cuban missile crisis.

 

[monkeybarry]

Sounds like it’s just Italy and Germany who don’t want to exclude Russia from SWIFT. WTF are they playing at?

And Hungary and Cyprus.

Look at the history of all 4 and you can understand the reluctance.

 

[johnola]

I don't dispute that the British have been a force for good for the past 100 years or so. My theoretical question to Scara was simple, when British troops were in Ireland which was the case from '69 to 2007 would it have been okay to ask the Soviets to lend a hand in England's back yard?

But Northern Ireland is British and the troubles were effectively a civil war with a nation state. It’s not a foreign campaign the British army was deployed there to fight that campaign and keep order but they are the native force they were not an occupying force.

 

[SpurMeUp]

But Northern Ireland is British

Not according to the IRA.

My point was only relating to a theoretical question as to whether if the Irish asked for troops from Russia, would it have been okay to send them.

 

[Baleforce]

Would swift removal make that much difference, surely they’d just run everything through China?

 

[DTA]

Yet in each and every one, peoples lives have suffered as a consequence. Many lament the stable, safe existence they had under dictators, relative to the mad max world they had post-intervention. Huge instability and destruction was caused by the west doing good. We created Isis. We destroyed what was a stable nation in Libya. We wrecked Afghanistan and turned it into pariah state run by fundamentalists. In each of these cases, lives were lost fighting for 'what was right' only to deliver worse than what was before.

Should we repeat this way of 'helping'?

It really is completely different, the wests interventions in the Middle East are either clumsy and ignorant because they either don’t understand or don’t care about the complexities on the ground, plus they are married to the failure of colonial carving of territory via Sykes piccot…or completely callous ways to further the military industrial complex.

Each of Iraq Syria Libya Afghanistan were fudge ups but for different reasons.

i swear even though I’m not an expert in the region, I could have done a better job for half the price, both in lives and dollars

 

[SpurMeUp]

Would swift removal make that much difference, surely they’d just run everything through China?

It would make a massive difference. Effectively closing Russia to trade with the west, at least short-term. I'm a shareholder in a company that has software developers who are based in the nether regions of Russia. How this UK firm would pay these developers without SWIFT payments is an interesting question. So it would really amount to the West imposing its own iron curtain and it would be felt in Russia.

 

[DTA]

Our troops, US troops, NATO's troops it doesn't matter - anyone's troops outside of Ukraine and you're dangerously close to kissing your arse goodbye under the shadow of a mushroom cloud.

Weaponry etc. just about passes, but boots on ground - dear GHod I hope not, not just for those involved (ex forces myself) but for the ramifications that could unfold from it.

Its too late to send troops now but it could have should have been done before as a defensive force.

now we should send in our versions of the Wagner group with proper air defence weapons

 

[thfcsteff]

Not at all. What is happening is obviously because of brexit.

OK. Listen. I've had a very rough couple of fudging weeks, so forgive my usual lack of indulgence for your trolling (this is your second cheap shot).

Let me spell out EXACTLY what I was suggesting.

That Putin has been stoking the fires of destabilization in both Europe and the US before making such a move.
Get it?
Whether anyone agrees with Brexit or not (and quite clearly you agree with it, marvelous, bully for you and all that) it has been a major contributing factor to the timing of this situation. Again, this observation has NOTHING to do whether someone likes or dislikes Brexit. It is a fact.
Ditto the almost total decimation of whatever 'democracy' you might say the US has had in place.
You DO understand why I am suggesting that point, right?
As for my question about how much dirty money has flowed through the country over the years, I'd say it is a pretty valid question.

Before you jump on the fudging troll steed again, let me remind you that all fingers point to Russia having assassinated/attempted top assassinate its own nationals on English soil. Without much more than a politely disturbed 'what the devil is all this about, that's no good' reaction.

So my friend, they are points worth raising for discussion and questions worth asking. If you just want to take an 'anti-English' angle and sulk about it, I hope it feels better than actually thinking about why this brick is happening, or at least trying to discuss it.

p.s. Let's just see what Boris the Clown does. I won't hold my breath to see if he'll lead the charge.

 

[SpurMeUp]

It really is completely different, the wests interventions in the Middle East are either clumsy and ignorant because they either don’t understand or don’t care about the complexities on the ground, plus they are married to the failure of colonial carving of territory via Sykes piccot…or completely callous ways to further the military industrial complex.

Each of Iraq Syria Libya Afghanistan were fudge ups but for different reasons.

i swear even though I’m not an expert in the region, I could have done a better job for half the price, both in lives and dollars

So Ukraine is different because we do understand the complexities on the ground? Creating a war in Ukraine would work, but the other interventions and wars in these other nations didn't. Good intentions...pretty terrible outcomes every time.

 

[Lilbaz]

Its too late to send troops now but it could have should have been done before as a defensive force.

now we should send in our versions of the Wagner group with proper air defence weapons

Ukraine is russias cuba (actually much more important). Think how close we came to nuclear war in the missile crisis. Russia are more determined.