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Politics, politics, politics

SpurMeUp said:
Okay. Consider this: Honda Swindon produce around 160,000 cars a year. Its half what it was in the good times. A Honda Civic is about £18k. If you do the maths that is many many millions in revenue. Of that 160,000 cars most go to Europe. Some to the US, a few are sold here. Honda would not give up the millions that they are making on this (comparatively small) production. They would have kept things going were it not for (at least) two things. First and foremost, a new EU free trade deal the UK had no say over which means they can export cars from Japan to Europe. Before there was a 10% tax or tariff and that's why Japanese car firms made cars in the UK - to service Europe. Now they don't have to. That is the big piece here. When the CEO gives this bad news its not technically because of Brexit, it because their trade terms have changed.

Add on top of that that they need to plan for electric production lines, and the uncertainty of Brexit (will there be a hard exit disrupting supplies?) and its a no brainer for the Japanese. Had the UK been in the EU we would not have given up these Japanese car jobs so easily. However, in return the EU will be able to sell billions worth of goods to Japan that have been stopped with tariffs on their end. It is estimated that the UK benefit from the free agreement with Japan to the tune of £3b+ each year in new trade. Outside the EU of course we won't get that. But we can make our own agreement with Japan if they'll listen and talk. It too the EU 4 years to do this deal.

Honda senior management will have been planning this with their PR departments for sometime. Planning what they say, planning how not to damage their brand and standing in the UK. Of course they are not going to be divisive and alienate people by blaming the UK. What a stupid move that would be. Draw your own conclusions. But at least consider some of the details.
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Membership of the TPP would give us better trading terms with Japan than Japan's deal with the EU.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Bentley, Aston Martin, Jag, Lotus, Land Rover, Rolls-Royce etc. It was the best in the world until it got decimated when we joined the EEC in the mid-70s.
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France protected their automotive industry from within the EU. With the government part owning their car firms at various times. It is not the EU that has caused us to lose our car industry.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Okay. Consider this: Honda Swindon produce around 160,000 cars a year. Its half what it was in the good times. A Honda Civic is about £18k. If you do the maths that is many many millions in revenue. Of that 160,000 cars most go to Europe. Some to the US, a few are sold here. Honda would not give up the millions that they are making on this (comparatively small) production. They would have kept things going were it not for (at least) two things. First and foremost, a new EU free trade deal the UK had no say over which means they can export cars from Japan to Europe. Before there was a 10% tax or tariff and that's why Japanese car firms made cars in the UK - to service Europe. Now they don't have to. That is the big piece here. When the CEO gives this bad news its not technically because of Brexit, it because their trade terms have changed.

Add on top of that that they need to plan for electric production lines, and the uncertainty of Brexit (will there be a hard exit disrupting supplies?) and its a no brainer for the Japanese. Had the UK been in the EU we would not have given up these Japanese car jobs so easily. However, in return the EU will be able to sell billions worth of goods to Japan that have been stopped with tariffs on their end. It is estimated that the UK benefit from the free agreement with Japan to the tune of £3b+ each year in new trade. Outside the EU of course we won't get that. But we can make our own agreement with Japan if they'll listen and talk. It too the EU 4 years to do this deal.

Honda senior management will have been planning this with their PR departments for sometime. Planning what they say, planning how not to damage their brand and standing in the UK. Of course they are not going to be divisive and alienate people by blaming the UK. What a stupid move that would be. Draw your own conclusions. But at least consider some of the details.
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But how does that 160,000 compare to their growing markets:

Mr Howells said that, in the light of changes in the industry, the company had to "look very closely" at where it was putting its investment.

The company sells many more vehicles in North America, Japan and China than it does in Europe.

"It has to be in a marketplace of a size for Honda, where it makes investment worthwhile.

"The conclusion coming out of that is that that doesn't include Swindon - the relative size of the marketplace in Europe is significantly different."

So basically redirecting their investments not doubling down on them
 
Grays_1890 said:
But how does that 160,000 compare to their growing markets:

Mr Howells said that, in the light of changes in the industry, the company had to "look very closely" at where it was putting its investment.

The company sells many more vehicles in North America, Japan and China than it does in Europe.

"It has to be in a marketplace of a size for Honda, where it makes investment worthwhile.

"The conclusion coming out of that is that that doesn't include Swindon - the relative size of the marketplace in Europe is significantly different."

So basically redirecting their investments not doubling down on them
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Yes they don't need to produce cars here now - they can send them in from Japan, because of the trade deal the EU struck without us at the table. Here is what Mr Howells said last September. This reality he outlines facing Honda has not changed.


The senior vice president of Honda Europe has warned that a no-deal Brexit would cost his company tens of millions of pounds.

Ian Howells told the BBC that quitting the bloc without an agreement would affect the carmaker's competitiveness in Europe.

He said the Japanese firm was preparing for a no-deal outcome but had not discussed relocating its Swindon plant.

The firm builds its Civic model in Britain for the global market.

In an interview with Radio 5 live, Mr Howells said a no-deal Brexit would lead to costly trade barriers and disrupt its supply chain.

"In terms of administration, we'd probably be looking at something like sixty odd thousand additional bits of documentation we would have to provide to get product to and from Europe," he told the Wake up to Money programme.

"And clearly if we end up with World Trade Organization tariffs we'd have something like 10% costs in addition on our shipped product back into Europe, and that would certainly run into tens of millions of pounds."

"Likewise when we're looking at componentry coming the other way, again [it could cost] tens of millions in terms of tariffs coming into the UK."

Supply chain risks
Like other carmakers in Britain, Honda only stores about an hour's worth of components at its Swindon plant to keep costs down.

Instead it relies on about 350 truckloads of parts that are delivered from the continent each day.

Mr Howells said the loss of "frictionless trade" in this supply chain would harm its production output and competitiveness.

"If we are shipping and competing against a European manufacturer in Europe, they are not incurring those tariffs," he said.

"And in the UK it would be the componentry cost that would be the main additional burden we would have to carry for UK customers."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45558424
 
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SpurMeUp said:
Yes they don't need to produce cars here now - they can send them in from Japan. Because of the trade deal the EU struck without us at the table. Here is what Mr Howells said last September. This reality he outlines facing Honda has not changed.


The senior vice president of Honda Europe has warned that a no-deal Brexit would cost his company tens of millions of pounds.

Ian Howells told the BBC that quitting the bloc without an agreement would affect the carmaker's competitiveness in Europe.

He said the Japanese firm was preparing for a no-deal outcome but had not discussed relocating its Swindon plant.

The firm builds its Civic model in Britain for the global market.

In an interview with Radio 5 live, Mr Howells said a no-deal Brexit would lead to costly trade barriers and disrupt its supply chain.

"In terms of administration, we'd probably be looking at something like sixty odd thousand additional bits of documentation we would have to provide to get product to and from Europe," he told the Wake up to Money programme.

"And clearly if we end up with World Trade Organization tariffs we'd have something like 10% costs in addition on our shipped product back into Europe, and that would certainly run into tens of millions of pounds."

"Likewise when we're looking at componentry coming the other way, again [it could cost] tens of millions in terms of tariffs coming into the UK."

Supply chain risks
Like other carmakers in Britain, Honda only stores about an hour's worth of components at its Swindon plant to keep costs down.

Instead it relies on about 350 truckloads of parts that are delivered from the continent each day.

Mr Howells said the loss of "frictionless trade" in this supply chain would harm its production output and competitiveness.

"If we are shipping and competing against a European manufacturer in Europe, they are not incurring those tariffs," he said.

"And in the UK it would be the componentry cost that would be the main additional burden we would have to carry for UK customers."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45558424
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And in less than a year he has changed his tune, why not stick to the hymn sheet if he had already started the band playing?
 
Gutter Boy said:
Bentley, Aston Martin, Jag, Lotus, Land Rover, Rolls-Royce etc. It was the best in the world until it got decimated when we joined the EEC in the mid-70s.
Click to expand...

Even at their best unreliable and rusting junk.

None of them made a decent vehicle without foreign influence.
 
Grays_1890 said:
And in less than a year he has changed his tune, why not stick to the hymn sheet if he had already started the band playing?
Click to expand...

Because he doesn't want to alienate customers as outlined previously, and the real decision makers in Japan made a decision. They'd been warning of it for long enough, even the Japanese PM got involved warning our PM. Why would the Japanese owners risk Brexit uncertainty and millions of losses when they could make the cars at home and export them to the EU; with 0% tariffs longer term. If you were in their shoes you'd make the same decision.

There has been a change in global trade conditions. The main change has been the Japs don't need us to access the EU no more. Did Brexit play its part? Yes of course it did. We can put our heads in the sands or man up and see the reality unfolding before you.
 
StephenH said:
You keep kidding yourself.
They all failed due poor management and lack of investment
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So a Japanese car manufacture pulling out at the time of leaving the EU is completely due to Brexit, but the entire British car industry crumbling a short time after joining the ECC is just a co-incidence?
 
Grays_1890 said:
Ok I will jump on the bandwagon and blame Brexit even though the CEO and SVP today said otherwise.

Choo Choo
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I think its more a case of jumping off the bandwagon. Not believing everything people say, especially when they are making delicate announcements that they don't want to alienate customers. Then reach your own rational conclusions.

Pre-Brexit people warned of the potential damage to the car industry. Now it has happened, albeit exacerbated by global slow down in China, Brexiteers want to bury their head in the sand and say it was just a weird coincidence the Nissan and Honda job losses occurred now on the eve of Brexit, after 35 successful years in the UK. Choo choo to you too. :)
 
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SpurMeUp said:
I think its more a case of jumping off the bandwagon. Not believing everything people say, especially when they are making delicate announcements that they don't want to alienate customers. Then reach your own rational conclusions.

Pre-Brexit people warned of the potential damage to the car industry. Now it has happened, albeit exacerbated by global slow down in China, Brexiteers want to bury their head in the sand and say it was just a weird coincidence the Nissan and Honda job losses occurred now on the even of Brexit, after 35 successful years in the UK. Choo choo to you too. :)
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I am rational, the global slow down in China, the slow down in sales in the EU and the advancement in need for E-cars play more of a part in all of this than Brexit, as I said pages back Honda have planned this for 6 years.

The facts are if companies blame Brexit, its Brexits fault, if companies don't blame Brexit, Its Brexits fault, thats a bandwagon son because if a company comes out and lays it out to say Brexit is the major factor in leaving or closing I will accept it pal, you can't it seems.

Anyway I am off to watch Liverpool suffer 2nd half.

Shalom
 
Gutter Boy said:
So a Japanese car manufacture pulling out at the time of leaving the EU is completely due to Brexit, but the entire British car industry crumbling a short time after joining the ECC is just a co-incidence?
Click to expand...

The British car industry crumbled because we were not very good at making cheap and reliable cars at scale, as soon as a better product became available people bought it.
 
Grays_1890 said:
I am rational, the global slow down in China, the slow down in sales in the EU and the advancement in need for E-cars play more of a part in all of this than Brexit, as I said pages back Honda have planned this for 6 years.

The facts are if companies blame Brexit, its Brexits fault, if companies don't blame Brexit, Its Brexits fault, thats a bandwagon son because if a company comes out and lays it out to say Brexit is the major factor in leaving or closing I will accept it pal, you can't it seems.

Anyway I am off to watch Liverpool suffer 2nd half.

Shalom
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Hey no hard feelings. And I take your point. I don't believe it, but I am wholly biased as are you. In that we are unified :)
 
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