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Politics, politics, politics

markysimmo said:
What plan would have got a majority ?
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I believe that only a Norway type arrangement currently commands a majority in the house. But as time goes on, things may change (so they may come a time when there's a majority for a 2nd referendum, for example).
 
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markysimmo said:
What plan would have got a majority ?
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This.

Unfortunely Brexit is and always has been a sham. Sold as something of value, the truth is, viable exit options are all suboptimal. Therein lies the real issue. Whatever is on the table - realistic not pipedreams - would look bad for the UK. People just can't admit or say it. Its Emperors new clothes at the moment.
 
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the dza said:
I believe that only a Norway type arrangement currently commands a majority in the house. But as time goes on, things may change (so they may come a time when there's a majority for a 2nd referendum, for example).
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I not sure it would command a majority. Who does it satisfy? A lot less sovrignity. A rule taker not rule maker. No control on freedom of movement. Are there any upsides? Control of our fishing waters...?
 
What I find curious is that people who voted Leave don't seem to understand that what May put on the table was fair - more or less what people voted for. It suggested there would be control on freedom of movement, and we'd keep free trade of goods. I can not see what else Leavers could realisticaly ask for...that could be delivered...?
 
SpurMeUp said:
I not sure it would command a majority. Who does it satisfy? A lot less sovrignity. A rule taker not rule maker. No control on freedom of movement. Are there any upsides? Control of our fishing waters...?
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Indeed. I'm not sure how the Norway deal could be considered anything more than another bad deal compared to the land of milk and honey that was promised. It doesn't even fully address the NI border problem, and as far as I recall EFTA membership is not a given either.
 
SpurMeUp said:
I not sure it would command a majority. Who does it satisfy? A lot less sovrignity. A rule taker not rule maker. No control on freedom of movement. Are there any upsides? Control of our fishing waters...?
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Remain Tories choose it over no-deal as a compromise, likewise Labour remainers, the SNP and even DUP have said they'd go for Norway plus. Currently, there is more support for this in the commons than a 2nd ref.
 
SpurMeUp said:
What I find curious is that people who voted Leave don't seem to understand that what May put on the table was fair - more or less what people voted for. It suggested there would be control on freedom of movement, and we'd keep free trade of goods. I can not see what else Leavers could realisticaly ask for...that could be delivered...?
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The problem is the backstop permanently binds us into BINO. Its the permanent customs territory bit and the level playing field stuff which prevents us ever making sovereign economic decisions - to move either left or right. That's why leavers in both parties are hostile to it
 
SpurMeUp said:
What I find curious is that people who voted Leave don't seem to understand that what May put on the table was fair - more or less what people voted for. It suggested there would be control on freedom of movement, and we'd keep free trade of goods. I can not see what else Leavers could realisticaly ask for...that could be delivered...?
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I get what you're saying but 432 MPs thought it was shi.t rather than fair.

It just shows that whoever is/was running the show is caught between a rock and a hard place.

There would be no transformational renogotiation by any party of any colour. There is not a good deal out there. Our leaverage is minimal (or appears to be due to the useless c.unts running the shi.t show)

Our 'true' options are remain or leave with no deal. The problem with 'no deal' is it's an option looked upon as something we're 'left with' because of the failings of the other options, when if it was analysed, fleshed out, and some framework built around it and had some serious minds and engaging leadership, we'd be rightfully worried but at least have some roots of confidence to suppisu a move in that direction.

Alas, remaining is the safest,quickest,least risky option due to the Herbert's involved plus the government can regain some focus on the things they obviously haven't been doing while all this has been going on.
 
Gutter Boy said:
The problem is the backstop permanently binds us into BINO. Its the permanent customs territory bit and the level playing field stuff which prevents us ever making sovereign economic decisions - to move either left or right. That's why leavers in both parties are hostile to it
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Which only comes into play if we don't make a free trade agreement. Would emphasise the "that could be delivered...?" part. The EU won't sell Irland its memeber out, and cut it loose. Why would it? Brexit has been one big delusion from start to finish. May was deluded that postponing the vote would change anything. People are deluded that going back to the EU now, will change anything significant. Fuk it people were deluded that Brexit offered anything in the first place. Its one big headace with no upside. Emperors new clothes. Call it as it is - a waste of time.

Since the vote result its been an exercise in how to save face, be seen to be doing the right thing.
 
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ricky2tricky4city said:
I get what you're saying but 432 MPs thought it was shi.t rather than fair.

It just shows that whoever is/was running the show is caught between a rock and a hard place.

There would be no transformational renogotiation by any party of any colour. There is not a good deal out there. Our leaverage is minimal (or appears to be due to the useless c.unts running the shi.t show)

Our 'true' options are remain or leave with no deal. The problem with 'no deal' is it's an option looked upon as something we're 'left with' because of the failings of the other options, when if it was analysed, fleshed out, and some framework built around it and had some serious minds and engaging leadership, we'd be rightfully worried but at least have some roots of confidence to suppisu a move in that direction.

Alas, remaining is the safest,quickest,least risky option due to the Herbert's involved plus the government can regain some focus on the things they obviously haven't been doing while all this has been going on.
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I just mean, you ask a Leaver on the street, and they'll come back with something like: well May she's a Remainer so she was never going to deliver. Apparently that was the problem. Hold on. Didn't people want an end to free movement, and to keep as much trade and prosperity, and control of our laws etc? Do people even know what they voted for? If it wasn't all such a waste of time and money it would be hilarious. One big farce.

Now its a case of saving face. How can May save face, the Tory party, the UK?
 
the dza said:
Remain Tories choose it over no-deal as a compromise, likewise Labour remainers, the SNP and even DUP have said they'd go for Norway plus. Currently, there is more support for this in the commons than a 2nd ref.
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Yes it is better than hard Brexit but everything is better than hard Brexit. Norway (+) is far worse than remain. Norway plus is remaining with no power. It is leaving the EU and joining the EFTA (or a clone) which is basically the EU's impotent brother. I can't see that outcome as remotely linked to the result that was voted for.

Gutter Boy said:
All it needs is one concession. An end date to the backstop and the ERG and DUP all fall into line
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There will be no time limit to the backstop. That would not make it a backstop. They tried to tie it into a complete fantasy of a tech solution (which even the DUP are not buying) and that didn't wash. I'm 100% sure this won't happen.
 
the dza said:
I believe that only a Norway type arrangement currently commands a majority in the house. But as time goes on, things may change (so they may come a time when there's a majority for a 2nd referendum, for example).
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It's the best option but I don't think it would carry a majority - not even close.

Too many MPs would be considered by their electorate to have betrayed them by not ending freedom of movement.
 
SpurMeUp said:
What I find curious is that people who voted Leave don't seem to understand that what May put on the table was fair - more or less what people voted for. It suggested there would be control on freedom of movement, and we'd keep free trade of goods. I can not see what else Leavers could realisticaly ask for...that could be delivered...?
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I'm not sure how you've come to that conclusion.

Lots of people voted for lots of versions of Brexit, I've yet to hear of a single one that voted for a Brexit that's anything like May's version.
 
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