Politics, politics, politics

[monkeybarry]

I can summarise that entire speech with the word "inflation"

Price inflation though, not wage inflation.

But it's ok, it's controlled inflation.

 

[scaramanga]

Price inflation though, not wage inflation.

But it's ok, it's controlled inflation.

I'd imagine there will be some wage inflation at the bottom end of the scale if the govt are reducing the supply of low cost labour.

 

[r-u-s-x]

I'd imagine there will be some wage inflation at the bottom end of the scale if the govt are reducing the supply of low cost labour.

I fully expect that in work (and other) benefits and possibly minimum wage will be removed / reduced for foriegn low cost labour. Can see low cost immigration go down with slight of hand by issueing short term guest worker visas (not counted in immigration numbers). Obvously depends on who is on power but I do think this was the end game for a fair few influential Brexitiers.

 

[scaramanga]

I fully expect that in work benefits and possibly minimum wage will be removed / reduced for foriegn low cost labour. Can see low cost immigration go down with slight of hand by issueing short term guest worker visas (not counted in immigration numbers). Obvously depends on who is on power but I do think this was the end game for a fair few influential Brexitiers.

I'd be perfectly happy with that.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

I'd be perfectly happy with that.

You'd be happy letting gangmaster import people to work on brick wages with minimal employment rights, kept in line by the fear of deportation? Essentially, the Dubai model for sanctioned slavery?

 

[scaramanga]

You'd be happy letting gangmaster import people to work on brick wages with minimal employment rights, kept in line by the fear of deportation? Essentially, the Dubai model for sanctioned slavery?

I don't think there should be any threat of deportation. I do believe it's only right that we extricate ourselves from the silly EU rule of paying in and out of work benefits to migrants and their families. I also believe that a person's labour is worth what the market has to pay to procure that labour. If that's above or below minimum wage then so be it.

EDIT: Just to firm up that first sentence, I believe that people should be free to move to any part of the world they choose to without restriction from artificial borders. We should extend the free movement of people to all.

EDIT2: Realised I missed your point about employment rights. People will always have the ultimate employment right, which is to withdraw the labour their employer needs.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

I don't think there should be any threat of deportation. I do believe it's only right that we extricate ourselves from the silly EU rule of paying in and out of work benefits to migrants and their families. I also believe that a person's labour is worth what the market has to pay to procure that labour. If that's above or below minimum wage then so be it.

EDIT: Just to firm up that first sentence, I believe that people should be free to move to any part of the world they choose to without restriction from artificial borders. We should extend the free movement of people to all.

EDIT2: Realised I missed your point about employment rights. People will always have the ultimate employment right, which is to withdraw the labour their employer needs.

The threat of deportation is always implicit in employment contracts when the only way to get into a country is on a guest worker visa backed by the employer. That makes your Edit 2 rather unsatisfactory: if the consequences of withdrawing your labour are disastrous, employers can behave very badly indeed.

 

[SpurMeUp]

We should extend the free movement of people to all.

Like the EU does?

Will it be a loss not to be able to enter the EU nations without paperwork, and not to be able to work there without thought or bureaucracy? We can't expect to stop the reverse, but for the EU to lets us have free entry etc ourselves.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Guys stop - Scara has firm beliefs that the market knows best - i.e. he would have no controls on pollution (dumping into rivers etc) as the market would be more efficient in resolving this to the countries requirements. Economically he is to the extreme (*extreme) right - so in all of your questions the answer is we should remove any controls and let the market decide.

 

[scaramanga]

The threat of deportation is always implicit in employment contracts when the only way to get into a country is on a guest worker visa backed by the employer. That makes your Edit 2 rather unsatisfactory: if the consequences of withdrawing your labour are disastrous, employers can behave very badly indeed.

As I stated, I don't believe we should require visas or permits to move to any country we desire.

Unfortunately, a reduction in immigration was in the minds of those who voted Leave. That means the government has to at least pretend to reduce immigration. I've stated my preferred solution, I would rather a fudge as described above than stopping the import of unskilled labour altogether.

 

[scaramanga]

Like the EU does?

Will it be a loss not to be able to enter the EU nations without paperwork, and not to be able to work there without thought or bureaucracy? We can't expect to stop the reverse, but for the EU to lets us have free entry etc ourselves.

I think you've either failed to read my post or failed to understand what restrictions the EU does and doesn't place on EU immigration.

As far as I know, the EU only allows for free movement of EU citizens - there's no good reason why we should restrict free movement to people who happened to be born in a certain country. They also ensure that in and out of work benefits must be paid - that's simply not compatible with having free movement of all.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

As I stated, I don't believe we should require visas or permits to move to any country we desire.

Unfortunately, a reduction in immigration was in the minds of those who voted Leave. That means the government has to at least pretend to reduce immigration. I've stated my preferred solution, I would rather a fudge as described above than stopping the import of unskilled labour altogether.

Your version of freedom of movement is inconsistent with the provision of public goods, safety nets and social protection. Presumably that's a feature, rather than a bug?

It's that, rather than the Leave vote, that makes it politically unworkable.

Immigration policy is always going to be a bit of a fudge. My view is that the fudge we had up until relatively recently was a pretty good one, and that freedom of movement for EU citizens doesn't have too many downsides.

 

[scaramanga]

Your version of freedom of movement is inconsistent with the provision of public goods, safety nets and social protection. Presumably that's a feature, rather than a bug?

It's that, rather than the Leave vote, that makes it politically unworkable.

Immigration policy is always going to be a bit of a fudge. My view is that the fudge we had up until relatively recently was a pretty good one, and that freedom of movement for EU citizens doesn't have too many downsides.

I think if people want to rely on a safety net, then asking a foreign country to provide it should be out of the question. I have no issue with there being some level of safety net, I'm fairly sure we'll disagree on what that level should be.

The freedom of movement for EU citizens had two major flaws. It didn't allow for freedom of movement for everyone else, and it required the destination country to provide the safety net. The former is absolutely wrong IMO. The fault with the latter is clear - if a country has no control over who can reside there, and everyone who chooses to reside there must be covered by the safety net, the end result is an impossibly large safety net.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I think you've either failed to read my post or failed to understand what restrictions the EU does and doesn't place on EU immigration.

As far as I know, the EU only allows for free movement of EU citizens - there's no good reason why we should restrict free movement to people who happened to be born in a certain country. They also ensure that in and out of work benefits must be paid - that's simply not compatible with having free movement of all.

Either the principle of free movement is good or not. You can't say its good globally but not in Europe. What is the safty net and why does it apply to Europe and not the world?

As we know it would be wholly unworkable to have free movement into the UK from any nation in the world! We'd have half of Africa queueing up. People are desperate to make it into Europe. How would that work!? You'd leave people who are free to move here on the streets begging or stealing to get by?

On the other hand, free movement in the EU works relatively well. People are truly free. Labour is also free. But there are issues that European populations are not happy with and need some attention. It is not perfect, but its pretty good, and changing to a reality where we can't move so freely in Europe is a backward step for the UK imo.

 

[scaramanga]

Either the principle of free movement is good or not. You can't say its good globally but not in Europe. What is the safty net and why does it apply to Europe and not the world?

As we know it would be wholly unworkable to have free movement into the UK from any nation in the world! We'd have half of Africa queueing up. People are desperate to make it into Europe. How would that work!? You'd leave people who are free to move here on the streets begging or stealing to get by?

On the other hand, free movement in the EU works relatively well. People are truly free. Labour is also free. But there are issues that European populations are not happy with and need some attention. It is not perfect, but its pretty good, and changing to a reality where we can't move so freely in Europe is a backward step for the UK imo.

The EU's method is the one that is anti free movement. The EU enforces the restriction to just EU citizens.

If there's no safety net outside of one's own country, then there's no incentive to move to that country. People would be far more likely to beg on the streets of a country that does offer them a safety net.

 

[r-u-s-x]

If there's no safety net outside of one's own country, then there's no incentive to move to that country. People would be far more likely to beg on the streets of a country that does offer them a safety net.

you don't believe that the main reason for immigration is that the immigrants are coming for benefits of that country... especially from war torn countries or those with famine. There is a greater desire for people to go to the US over Sweden for example.

 

[scaramanga]

you don't believe that the main reason for immigration is that the immigrants are coming for benefits of that country... especially from war torn countries or those with famine. There is a greater desire for people to go to the US over Sweden for example.

I think that a complete lack of safety net has a disincentive effect. In our case, we're surrounded by countries with safety nets that speak English very, very well. The incentive to be desolate in the UK over sheltered in France would be minimal IMO.

 

[r-u-s-x]

I think that a complete lack of safety net has a disincentive effect. In our case, I'm a surrounded by countries with safety nets that speak English very, very well. The incentive to be desolate in the UK over sheltered in France would be minimal IMO.

It would only be us with the open boarders not France, not to mention language.

"As we know it would be wholly unworkable to have free movement into the UK from any nation in the world! We'd have half of Africa queueing up."

 

[scaramanga]

It would only be us with the open boarders not France, not to mention language.

"As we know it would be wholly unworkable to have free movement into the UK from any nation in the world! We'd have half of Africa queueing up."

If we're not providing any safety net at all, then I don't see that spending a lifetime's savings to die on the street in the UK as a viable option over the alternatives.

 

[r-u-s-x]

If I'm a not providing any safety net at all, then I don't see that spending a lifetime's savings to die on the street in the UK as a viable option over the alternatives.

The Alternative is a war torn country not an EU as in your scenario its only us with open boarders.
The US safety net is small the Canada is large -more people want to get to America.