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Politics, politics, politics

nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Well theres the fun bit as well.

Not that I agree with a second referendum (unless all options were out, but we chose which was most suitable.)

What happens if the options are to stay - €uro and everything, or go. Rather than "lets forget it never happened" or go.
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We could have lots of options with AV and multiple preferences, even limiting it to ones that would be acceptable to the EU27.

A- Status quo with Euro, schenghen and ever closer union
B- Status quo
C- EEA/EFTA
D- CETA with Irish Sea border
E- WTO

I'd vote BCADE or BACDE, depending on the number of seats we got on EFTA. Two, and we'd be quite a force.

I'd expect A and E to be dumped pretty early on, and B or C to narrowly squeak it when second, third and fourth preferences were added in.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
We could have lots of options with AV and multiple preferences, even limiting it to ones that would be acceptable to the EU27.

A- Status quo with Euro, schenghen and ever closer union
B- Status quo
C- EEA/EFTA
D- CETA with Irish Sea border
E- WTO

I'd vote BCADE or BACDE, depending on the number of seats we got on EFTA. Two, and we'd be quite a force.
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Leave side could argue that "out" has already been decided, so it'd be just a vote on what type of "out". Which would be:

A- EEA/EFTA
B- CETA with Irish Sea border
C- WTO

I'd vote ABC in that case. If it was the options in your post, I'd vote BCADE.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
We could have lots of options with AV and multiple preferences, even limiting it to ones that would be acceptable to the EU27.

A- Status quo with Euro, schenghen and ever closer union
B- Status quo
C- EEA/EFTA
D- CETA with Irish Sea border
E- WTO

I'd vote BCADE or BACDE, depending on the number of seats we got on EFTA. Two, and we'd be quite a force.

I'd expect A and E to be dumped pretty early on, and B or C to narrowly squeak it when second, third and fourth preferences were added in.
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You can't though because it's too easy to rig. You are just splitting the votes of either the leave or remain side, whoever is setting the questions. Referendums have to be binary.
 
the dza said:
Leave side could argue that "out" has already been decided, so it'd be just a vote on what type of "out". Which would be:

A- EEA/EFTA
B- CETA with Irish Sea border
C- WTO

I'd vote ABC in that case. If it was the options in your post, I'd vote BCADE.
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There's a good chance it could go as you suggest, on the other hand the claim that EEA/EFTA is vassalage, and inferior to the status quo, has been made so loudly and frequently by Brexiteers that keeping out the remain option would have poor optics.
 
Gutter Boy said:
You can't though because it's too easy to rig. You are just splitting the votes of either the leave or remain side, whoever is setting the questions. Referendums have to be binary.
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Gutter Boy said:
That's better, but you are still rigging it for the remainers (one option A, vs leavers split between B & C)
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Do you understand how AV works? You must have voted in London mayoral elections, which have used multiple preference votes.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
We could have lots of options with AV and multiple preferences, even limiting it to ones that would be acceptable to the EU27.

A- Status quo with Euro, schenghen and ever closer union
B- Status quo
C- EEA/EFTA
D- CETA with Irish Sea border
E- WTO

I'd vote BCADE or BACDE, depending on the number of seats we got on EFTA. Two, and we'd be quite a force.

I'd expect A and E to be dumped pretty early on, and B or C to narrowly squeak it when second, third and fourth preferences were added in.
Click to expand...

A isnt status quo, is it.

And, IMO, would be a lot less favourable to many a remainer than one might expect.

Its an oddity of this debate. Remainers talk about the EU in glowing terms, but face them with the prospect being "more in" their favour for it will wane IMO.


the dza said:
Leave side could argue that "out" has already been decided, so it'd be just a vote on what type of "out". Which would be:

A- EEA/EFTA
B- CETA with Irish Sea border
C- WTO

I'd vote ABC in that case. If it was the options in your post, I'd vote BCADE.
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IMHO "out" needs to be honoured. The referendum was offered, a decision was made. Thats how democracy works, and so it has to be followed through.

Its not even a brexit thing, its the principle of it.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
What are we asking for, that Canada were not?

And what does "asking for a lot" have to do with free movement of people?
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Asking for a stop to freedom of movement is
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Im unaware of the legalities involved, how much of a say to the EU have? Do they have to simply accept our decision or vote on it etc?

Ive always maintained (and given how they have leveraged their position so far) that they would likely want us "all in" if we decided to back out.

No Veto, into the €URO, the lot. Quite frankly, why wouldnt they?

Force us into full and committed participation, instead of the arms length attitude we have always maintained.
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Well I would hope that our government would be at least competent enough to get assurances of the fact that we would remain with the same terms (or ever so slightly better... Which I believe would be achievable) before we agreed to have a second referendum.

Thats what we should be bargaining for now. Everything else sees us worse off. But slight improvement in terms in order to put a final choice to the public is what we should be doing.

But instead we are wasting time on non options.
 
Gutter Boy said:
That's better, but you are still rigging it for the remainers (one option A, vs leavers split between B & C)
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Not if you did it with an AV system. So, with

A- EEA/EFTA
B- CETA with Irish Sea border
C- WTO

You'd get strong remainers voting ABC, strong leavers voting CBA...which, it seems to me, makes the Canada-style deal the most likely winner (even though I'd prefer EEA deal).
 
DTA said:
Asking for a stop to freedom of movement is
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Is....what?


DTA said:
Well I would hope that our government would be at least competent enough to get assurances of the fact that we would remain with the same terms (or ever so slightly better... Which I believe would be achievable) before we agreed to have a second referendum.

Thats what we should be bargaining for now. Everything else sees us worse off. But slight improvement in terms in order to put a final choice to the public is what we should be doing.

But instead we are wasting time on non options.
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We tried for an improvement in terms and got told where to go, hence the referendum.

Given the absolute venom with which I get told "Why would they offer us a better deal", well, why would they offer us a better deal?

Surely it would be more sensible for the EU to leverage their position into something preferable for them, not us - in the event of a Remain U-turn. In exactly the same way remainers think they should in exit negotiations now.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
There's a good chance it could go as you suggest, on the other hand the claim that EEA/EFTA is vassalage, and inferior to the status quo, has been made so loudly and frequently by Brexiteers that keeping out the remain option would have poor optics.
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That's an interesting point. If one of the leave options is said to be 'Brexit in Name Only' then there's an argument that you may as well replace that option on the ballot with plain old 'Remain.' Though I think, to try and put the issue to bed, the BINO option would be the one offered.
 
the dza said:
That's an interesting point. If one of the leave options is said to be 'Brexit in Name Only' then there's an argument that you may as well replace that option on the ballot with plain old 'Remain.' Though I think, to try and put the issue to bed, the BINO option would be the one offered.
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Not unfair. BINO is a fudging farce and would be pointless, in that event may as well just not bother.
 
the dza said:
That's an interesting point. If one of the leave options is said to be 'Brexit in Name Only' then there's an argument that you may as well replace that option on the ballot with plain old 'Remain.' Though I think, to try and put the issue to bed, the BINO option would be the one offered.
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Yeah, I still think that the more options you put on the table, the more effective the consultation. However, this does seem to confuse not only Gutter Boy, but also Toby Young and plenty of other angry leavers: the number of people who don't understand an electoral system which has been used here for countless votes outside GEs is astonishing.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Not unfair. BINO is a fudging farce and would be pointless, in that event may as well just not bother.
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Have you come across Richard North on eureferendum.com? He and his adherents are EEA obsessives and campaigned for Leave in the fond belief that we'd end up with precisely that. He's now got the angriest betrayal narrative on the Internet. There's definitely a BINO constituency.
 
Gutter Boy said:
What if it were

A - Ukraine/Chequers
B - Canada + Irish Sea border
C - WTO

The question setting always rigs it
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The choices would have to be options that are workable with the EU and on the table, so that the result of the vote could be executed. The EU has already sh1t all over Chequers and I don't think the government sees Ukraine deal as viable.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
Have you come across Richard North on eureferendum.com? He and his adherents are EEA obsessives and campaigned for Leave in the fond belief that we'd end up with precisely that. He's now got the angriest betrayal narrative on the Internet. There's definitely a BINO constituency.
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I have not, but your post comes as no surprise.

As I understand it, BINO is basically a Norway type deal whereby we get to trade, pay into the budget, but have no say in anything.

That being the case it would be a fudging departed move to make.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
Do you understand how AV works? You must have voted in London mayoral elections, which have used multiple preference votes.
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I don't like PR. It makes me accidentally vote for facists.

I won't ever vote Tory, Labour or Lib Dem, so once I've voted for my candidate, I just end up filling up the other preferences with the loonies. But sometimes the facists have unsuspecting party names and they get a tick along with the Pirate Party and Bus Pass Elvis Party
 
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