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Politics, politics, politics

the dza said:
Surely this whole thing could be properly explored by our government and their legal advisors, with the EU?

As in "If we were to revoke Article 50, would we be able to remain on the exact same terms as now, Mr. Barnier/EU27?"
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If Im reading it right, it seems nobody actually knows and it would be the ECJs decision whether or not we can pretend it never happened.

Were they to fall on the side of the EU having a say, I think my leaning is what would happen. Why wouldnt they take the chance for an advantage - its exactly what they have done throughout.

This whole negotation - from the Remain side - has been argued as "Why wouldnt they get the best for them?". Surely the same applies on the flip side.

What is better for them? Forgive and forget, or full integration?

We gave notice to leave, they accepted. Should we give notice to stay, maybe they need to accept then as well.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
I'm not an expert on supranational treaty law. I'm not even a lawyer. I could cheat and google for a precedent, but that would be caddish behaviour and a shocking waste of time which I'm meant to be spending working. My wife is even taking the children and dog away so that I can get on with the project I'm several months late on. Searching through case law online would be a horrible betrayal of her trust.
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Can't you ask some lawyer on Twitter? (I'm not on Twitter).
 
the dza said:
Surely this whole thing could be properly explored by our government and their legal advisors, with the EU?

As in "If we were to revoke Article 50, would we be able to remain on the exact same terms as now, Mr. Barnier/EU27?"
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It makes no sense from a political point of view. You don't negotiate by exploring exactly how you might capitulate
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
I'm not an expert on supranational treaty law. I'm not even a lawyer. I could cheat and google for a precedent, but that would be caddish behaviour and a shocking waste of time which I'm meant to be spending working. My wife is even taking the children and dog away so that I can get on with the project I'm several months late on. Searching through case law online would be a horrible betrayal of her trust.
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LOL - Im not expecting such. You strike me as a pretty well informed chap, I thought you may have known some examples, twas all.
 
the dza said:
Can't you ask some lawyer on Twitter? (I'm not on Twitter).
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The problem with things like Twitter is the inate bias of the poster. If a lawyer was willing to field questions on there around a matter, itll be one they are already invested in.

And, it seems, they would have to have a deep understanding of the ECJ and their proclivities to offer even a reasonable guestimation.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
The problem with things like Twitter is the inate bias of the poster. If a lawyer was willing to field questions on there around a matter, itll be one they are already invested in.

And, it seems, they would have to have a deep understanding of the ECJ and their proclivities to offer even a reasonable guestimation.
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I think what we really need is for the government to publish their advice on the matter.
 
the dza said:
I think what we really need is for the government to publish their advice on the matter.
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Even then - its "advice". Government "advice" is often not worth the paper its printed on.

Look at the advice they took in the lead up to the vote initially, and the complacency that followed...

Though Id be interested all the same - it would be good to see why they are keeping it quiet - I would always question its reliability.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
It makes perfect sense to me that the EU would want us on board properly.

Given their approach already - exploitative at least, IMO - though I appreciate many see it simlpy as "good business" - I dont see why they would allow a forgive and forget approach.

I think "Good business" would be getting us in on the same terms as everyone else, and full and equal member.

They have a stated aim of closer political union, this would service that.
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Asked if staying in was still an option for the UK, *Nathalie Loiseau told the programme:

We have always said, always, that the door would remain open and that we were not the ones who wanted to diverge from the United Kingdom. It was the British people who decided to leave the European Union.

And when asked if that meant the UK would be able to stay in, “on the same terms”, she replied:

Sure, of course. [Like] every single member state of the European Union, we have one conviction, which is that the best possible status is being a member, the most profitable status.


*she serves as the French Minister for European Affairs
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
The government has taken legal advice on the matter and refuses to publish it, even to the House of Commons. Presumably, they didn't like it.
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I think its common knowledge that the EU Commission would allow the UK to cancel Article 50 up until the Brexit date. This has been socialised by those in the Commission. How the UK would deal with it, and how we'd get to cacelling it in such a short period is far more challanging.
 
r-u-s-x said:
Asked if staying in was still an option for the UK, *Nathalie Loiseau told the programme:

We have always said, always, that the door would remain open and that we were not the ones who wanted to diverge from the United Kingdom. It was the British people who decided to leave the European Union.

And when asked if that meant the UK would be able to stay in, “on the same terms”, she replied:

Sure, of course. [Like] every single member state of the European Union, we have one conviction, which is that the best possible status is being a member, the most profitable status.


*she serves as the French Minister for European Affairs
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I dont know if she is any more reliable than Kerr. It would be a surprising take from them, IMO.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
The problem with things like Twitter is the inate bias of the poster. If a lawyer was willing to field questions on there around a matter, itll be one they are already invested in.

And, it seems, they would have to have a deep understanding of the ECJ and their proclivities to offer even a reasonable guestimation.
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There's also the thing that if you want a different legal opinion, you just hire two lawyers. Their role is primarily to look at case law, where that piece of law has been tested before, and say what is likely to happen the next time. Its opinion and interpretation, so two lawyers would almost always say something different.
 
Gutter Boy said:
There's also the thing that if you want a different legal opinion, you just hire two lawyers. Their role is primarily to look at case law, where that piece of law has been tested before, and say what is likely to happen the next time. Its opinion and interpretation, so two lawyers would almost always say something different.
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That's why it would be good to know the Government's legal advice on the matter. That's half the puzzle, then we'd just need to know what the EU thought. It would all become apparent in the event of a 2nd referendum I suppose.
 
the dza said:
That's why it would be good to know the Government's legal advice on the matter. That's half the puzzle, then we'd just need to know what the EU thought. It would all become apparent in the event of a 2nd referendum I suppose.
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Well theres the fun bit as well.

Not that I agree with a second referendum (unless all options were out, but we chose which was most suitable.)

What happens if the options are to stay - €uro and everything, or go. Rather than "lets forget it never happened" or go.
 
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