Politics, politics, politics

[scaramanga]

There is no different human races. We are the fudging same.

race noun (PEOPLE)
[ C or U ] a group, especially of people, with particular similar physicalcharacteristics, who are considered as belonging to the same type, or the fact ofbelonging to such a group:

NOUN

• 1Each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics.
  
  ‘people of all races, colours, and creeds’
  
  1. 1.1mass noun The fact or condition of belonging to a racial division or group; the qualities or characteristics associated with this.
     
     
  2. 1.2 A group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group.
     ‘we Scots were a bloodthirsty race then’
     
     
  3. 1.3 A group or set of people or things with a common feature or features.
     ‘the upper classes thought of themselves as a race apart’
     
     
  4. 1.4Biology A population within a species that is distinct in some way, especially a subspecies.
     ‘people have killed so many tigers that two races are probably extinct’
     
     
  5. 1.5 (in non-technical use) each of the major divisions of living creatures.
     ‘a member of the human race’
     
     ‘the race of birds’
  6. 1.6literary A group of people descended from a common ancestor.
     ‘a prince of the race of Solomon’
     
     
  7. 1.7archaic mass noun Ancestry.
     ‘two coursers of ethereal race

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

We have driving licence standards that are acceptable to the EU. But if Brexit happens and in 5 years our standards fall below what the EU deem as acceptable. Then that will be a problem for them. So if we want to use our licences in the EU, we have to agree to keep the same standards to prevent this problem.

If we don't agree to do this... No problem.. you can't drive in the EU... It's their right to do this as it is our right to do the same.

This is a microcosm of the whole EU negotiations.

If we want the benifits of the EU then we have to stick to their rules... If we don't want to do that then we lose those benifits.

Currently our standards are higher than much of the EU. How far do they have to drop before they arent good enough? And what is the liklihood of that happening?

You see, heres the point. Technically you are correct, practically you are wasting your time even arguing it.

Yes, the same as with anywhere else in the world, we would need to offer the right standards to trade/drive/whatever.

And that really is the point - same as with the rest of the world. How badly are we doing there right now? You had/heard of trouble driving outside of the EU without a permit?

Providing you meet base line X we are good to go, which you already do, easily, because youve been part of the bloc for decades. Cool, lets move onto more important stuff.

 

[milo]

As I said earlier, nobody should be abused or attacked, I believe that is wrong. I also believe that it is "more wrong" to abuse or attack someone for being a member of what I consider a protected class - that of their race, gender, sexuality, etc.

Can't help but use a football analogy in Random, so sorry about this. Footballers call each other clams all the time. We've all done it on the pitch and all been on the receiving end too. It shouldn't happen, we'd all prefer it didn't happen but it does. But when John Terry calls Anton Ferdinand a black clam, that's something altogether different.

Now as I've also said in this thread, when someone identifies as Jewish, it's a little different. Because of what has happened in their history, "Jewish" no longer just means someone who subscribes to Judaism as a religion. It can mean someone from that religion, someone of Jewish descent, someone who is a part of the Jewish culture, or often just someone from Israel. Where Islamic and Arabic (as one of many examples) are distinctions along which we can divide religion from genetics, Jewish and Jewish are currently inseparable. If someone attacked your aunt with the intent of insulting her religion then, as distasteful as that is, it's of the lesser category of "badness" in my opinion. If they attacked her religion in an attempt to attack Jewish people as a genetic or cultural group, then what they did was in the bigger bad category.

*There is sill a ginger and scouse exemption from protected groups - nobody want those genes spreading.

This line of argument is a bit too Bad Aids for me

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Thats just nonce-sense

 

[milo]

Quite simply any abuse of people is wrong. Regardless of their cultural, religious or any other beliefs. Maybe Scara is saying we should be able to question and challenge peoples beliefs. But that is very different from abuse.

Where does the Corbyn, lefty, anti-zionist stance sit? It's not 'abuse' but a rather basic dogma against right wing US and Zionist dominant forces. In one sense you need criticism and light shone on these powerful concerns to ensure they are not abusing others themselves. On the other hand the left wing dogma strays into something that is touching on racism - stereotyping people - and too close to the zionist conspiracy theories - jews run the world - blah blah gonads. successful jews stand out because other successful people don't have such a tag.

It is important zionism has its critics so long as it doesn't stray into simplistic stereotypes. What do the anti-zionists believe? That Israel shouldn't exist or that it should observe previous borders? Throughout history people have conquered and changed, why should things cease now? Now more than ever people are more forgiving of opposing neighbours.

The problem is that anti-Semites (on right and left) frequently (thinly) hide behind attacking Zionism.

 

[scaramanga]

This line of argument is a bit too Bad Aids for me

I fully get that many people don't want to see a difference. For me, the bad/worse definition has to exist so that the really bad stuff such as racism can be stood up as the truly bad stuff it really is.

I understand that's not a distinction all want to make though.

 

[DTA]

I know the dictionary definitions thanks.

Race is a flimflam concept.

 

[milo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1019821107833135104

https://twitter.com/x/status/1019977350224777216

 

[monkeybarry]

Quite. But most importantly, if we want to drop our standards we can. That way the only people who need to go through the bureaucracy are those who actually want to get the benefit of driving in the EU.

You're right, it is a microcosm of the EU negotiations. Currently everyone has to align with the EU for the tiny minority that it actually benefits.

I'm not really sure you could describe the people that benefit from road based business and tourism as a small minority. It is, in fact, a group of people with a scope wider than than just UK residents.

 

[DTA]

I'm not really sure you could describe the people that benefit from road based business and tourism as a small minority. It is, in fact, a group of people with a scope wider than than just UK residents.

Yes this. But also in relation to everything else. Even if @scaramanga tiny minority line was true (it's not), when you add up all our links with the EU each of those 'tiny minorities' add up to the sizable majority.

 

[scaramanga]

I'm not really sure you could describe the people that benefit from road based business and tourism as a small minority. It is, in fact, a group of people with a scope wider than than just UK residents.

I'm working on the assumption that if our standards are lowered below that of the EU, we wouldn't require EU drivers to prove their ability just for the sake of bureaucracy - we're not the EU.

 

[DTA]

Currently our standards are higher than much of the EU. How far do they have to drop before they arent good enough? And what is the liklihood of that happening?

You see, heres the point. Technically you are correct, practically you are wasting your time even arguing it.

Yes, the same as with anywhere else in the world, we would need to offer the right standards to trade/drive/whatever.

And that really is the point - same as with the rest of the world. How badly are we doing there right now? You had/heard of trouble driving outside of the EU without a permit?

Providing you meet base line X we are good to go, which you already do, easily, because youve been part of the bloc for decades. Cool, lets move onto more important stuff.

On the bolded bit. Dude what are you talking about... What do you think negotiations do? They are about forming the details of binding legal documents. They are all about being 'technical' as you put it.

 

[DTA]

I'm working on the assumption that if our standards are lowered below that of the EU, we wouldn't require EU drivers to prove their ability just for the sake of bureaucracy - we're not the EU.

And what if there is a difference in opinion on what is deemed as ''lowering standards'

 

[monkeybarry]

I'm working on the assumption that if our standards are lowered below that of the EU, we wouldn't require EU drivers to prove their ability just for the sake of bureaucracy - we're not the EU.

Irrespective of levels of standard, the EU will need to regularly check and verify the standards to ensure the safety of its members.
Those costs will be passed on within the single maekem and therefore passed on to no EU purchaser's, who in turn pass them on to customers.
Those customers are not in small minority. They include everyone that buys food in the UK, everyone that buys a UK export product that contains EU based components, anyone taking a holiday that takes in the UK and EU etc

 

[Trixster]

It's a mountain out of a molehill... Unless times have changed since I was in car rental then all the idp does is ratify the licence and explain the sections/entitlements in differing languages. And that is it.
Has nothing to do with standards of the test you passed, you could pay for a licence and get an idp for it and come to the UK and hire a car and no one would stop you - until you reversed into the office that is..

 

[Baleforce]

When did Davis start negotiating such things with the EU? Surely they’ve sorted the basics like this already...

 

[scaramanga]

And what if there is a difference in opinion on what is deemed as ''lowering standards'

Irrespective of levels of standard, the EU will need to regularly check and verify the standards to ensure the safety of its members.
Those costs will be passed on within the single maekem and therefore passed on to no EU purchaser's, who in turn pass them on to customers.
Those customers are not in small minority. They include everyone that buys food in the UK, everyone that buys a UK export product that contains EU based components, anyone taking a holiday that takes in the UK and EU etc

I suspect what will happen is what happens with every other country - next to nothing.

 

[DTA]

I suspect what will happen is what happens with every other country - next to nothing.

What happens with every other country?

 

[scaramanga]

What happens with every other country?

We rely on an external body and just use an IDP - it costs next to nothing and is accepted pretty much anywhere.

 

[the dza]

Isnt that just a rooster up though? We need the ability to leave the EEA, whether or not if it is desirable.

If we dont, then we are just hamstrung in negotiations because a Norway deal is about as far out of the EU as we can get. Which is fudging pointless.

The EU have bullied us through this process, and we have been too weak to stand up to them - what do you think theyll do when they realise we just shot our selves in the foot?

I get you want to remain - but objectively - this is just a stupid move to make, surely you would agree?

And, on a higher level, I still dont understand why it must be bound by the EEA anyway. Surely some things, like medicine, should transend those kind of boundaries and allow for more collaboration globally anyway?

It's all up in the air I suppose, but I think he was pointing out the current legal obligations and how the government might have given themselves (yet another) headache.