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Politics, politics, politics

milo said:
The EU is not an empire, it is international cooperation (which involves compromise), something that we will have to do a whole lot more of in the years ahead.

I think that this is where so many Brexiteers get it wrong. They see everything through nationalistic eyes and as a conflict.
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To be fair international cooperation can and always has been able to be carried out without being inside or a member of the EU. It's not as if it's not possible if we cease being an EU member
 
glorygloryeze said:
To be fair international cooperation can and always has been able to be carried out without being inside or a member of the EU. It's not as if it's not possible if we cease being an EU member
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I'm not saying that it is. I'm saying that a multitude of bilateral agreements is unlikely to result in less loss of 'control'.
 
milo said:
I'm not saying that it is. I'm saying that a multitude of bilateral agreements is unlikely to result in less loss of 'control'.
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We'll see. Not a problem if those bilateral agreements are done more directly by ourselves instead of as part of a collective that on balance (by its very nature) cannot always work in our national interests
 
glorygloryeze said:
We'll see. Not a problem if those bilateral agreements are done more directly by ourselves instead of as part of a collective that on balance (by its very nature) cannot always work in our national interests
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By pooling resources other times we will get better deals than we could on our own.
 
glorygloryeze said:
We'll see. Not a problem if those bilateral agreements are done more directly by ourselves instead of as part of a collective that on balance (by its very nature) cannot always work in our national interests
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Each bilateral agreement involves a loss of sovereignty of some degree. I think that it has not been shown that we could get a better deal outside of the EU than we could within it. I would hope that the government would show some evidence to support their preferred their route for exit to parliament and allow an informed debated when the moment comes.
 
milo said:
Each bilateral agreement involves a loss of sovereignty of some degree. I think that it has not been shown that we could get a better deal outside of the EU than we could within it. I would hope that the government would show some evidence to support their preferred their route for exit to parliament and allow an informed debated when the moment comes.
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I would say an agreement as part of a multinational bloc can show positives and negatives. I would also say that a member of that bloc will often have times when an agreement will not be as beneficial as compared to if the agreement was by themselves only, or with a smaller bloc of countries with similar economies and similar goods/resources to trade.

I don't think it has been shown that we automatically get better trade deals from within the EU - that is an automatic (but understandable) assumption; one way or another we will find out in due course
 
glorygloryeze said:
I would say an agreement as part of a multinational bloc can show positives and negatives. I would also say that a member of that bloc will often have times when an agreement will not be as beneficial as compared to if the agreement was by themselves only, or with a smaller bloc of countries with similar economies and similar goods/resources to trade.

I don't think it has been shown that we automatically get better trade deals from within the EU - that is an automatic (but understandable) assumption; one way or another we will find out in due course
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I agree on the first point although I think that it is self evident that it is more attractive to have access to a larger market than a smaller market and that foreign states may be more willing to make compromises to get access to that.

I think that given that access to the single market is the status quo, it is up to people who favour another arrangement to demonstrate that would be better for the country. In a referendum campaign where there was open disdain for expert opinion, I would like to see Brexiteers now engage with academics and present a strong economic case to support their views.
 
milo said:
I agree on the first point although I think that it is self evident that it is more attractive to have access to a larger market than a smaller market and that foreign states may be more willing to make compromises to get access to that.
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Isn't this dependent on what is being traded and the variance of the economies in the market?
For example if, say, the USA wanted to negotiate a trade deal with, say, an Eastern Asian economic bloc minus Japan and China, would they be that bothered to push for a deal with the larger bloc (with its larger market) if they can instead negotiate a trade deal with one of Japan or China, who individually may have a smaller market, but a more valuable market (in terms of wealth of consumer)?

milo said:
I think that given that access to the single market is the status quo, it is up to people who favour another arrangement to demonstrate that would be better for the country. In a referendum campaign where there was open disdain for expert opinion, I would like to see Brexiteers now engage with academics and present a strong economic case to support their views.
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During the referendum campaign there was 'expert opinion' for both Leave AND Remain, in terms of both Economic and Politics.
There was also disdain for said 'expert opinion' if it was the opposite of what one wanted to vote.
The time for engaging was prior to the vote and the arguments put forward by those who wanted a Remain vote were clearly not enough to convince the kaleidoscope of opinions (built up over many years, not just in the last 10 years) that in the end voted for leave.
Economics was not the only part of the reason.

It is now up to Parliament to decide how the UK leaves the EU; that is where any engagement at this point should to be done - and not only from an Economical point of view
 
glorygloryeze said:
Isn't this dependent on what is being traded and the variance of the economies in the market?
For example if, say, the USA wanted to negotiate a trade deal with, say, an Eastern Asian economic bloc minus Japan and China, would they be that bothered to push for a deal with the larger bloc (with its larger market) if they can instead negotiate a trade deal with one of Japan or China, who individually may have a smaller market, but a more valuable market (in terms of wealth of consumer)?



During the referendum campaign there was 'expert opinion' for both Leave AND Remain, in terms of both Economic and Politics.
There was also disdain for said 'expert opinion' if it was the opposite of what one wanted to vote.
The time for engaging was prior to the vote and the arguments put forward by those who wanted a Remain vote were clearly not enough to convince the kaleidoscope of opinions (built up over many years, not just in the last 10 years) that in the end voted for leave.
Economics was not the only part of the reason.

It is now up to Parliament to decide how the UK leaves the EU; that is where any engagement at this point should to be done - and not only from an Economical point of view
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I agree entirely that where we go from here should be decided by parliament but I would hope that they would want to listen to experts and make a considered judgement as part of that. The disdain for experts was one of the most shameful elements of the referendum campaign for me and has done irreparable damage to our political system.

What I also want to see from our politicians is a desire to take the heat out of this debate. A disgusting byproduct of the referendum has been an increase in hate crime. That needs to be stopped immediately and all people and organisations with a public voice need to take responsibility for what they say.
 
glorygloryeze said:
When you say resources do you mean accountants and civil servants? Or do you mean trading resources like goods, services, food etc?
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A crap analogy but should illustrate the point, who can achieve better deals in negotiation overall a market trader or tesco. The market trader may get some wins but overall tesco will come out on top.

During our negotiations we can go alone or be part of the biggest single market in the world. When negotiating terms with China I would expect to get a better deal, we may have to forgo a deal with Togo.

That ship has sailed however, on to a brave new world
 
r-u-s-x01 said:
A crap analogy but should illustrate the point, who can achieve better deals in negotiation overall a market trader or tesco. The market trader may get some wins but overall tesco will come out on top.

During our negotiations we can go alone or be part of the biggest single market in the world. When negotiating terms with China I would expect to get a better deal, we may have to forgo a deal with Togo.

That ship has sailed however, on to a brave new world
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I would expect the market trader to get deals that are more suited to the market trader.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
The following link from my local newspaper shows why brexit will never happen

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/14845759.Kyle_joins_rebel_Lucas_against_Brexit_on_wrong_terms/

They already know they wont like what ever terms are presented to them, they may say otherwise but their minds are already made up. The rise from the ashes for UKIP looks like a certainty now.
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MPs have very right to vote as their conscience tells them. That is what they are elected to do. It does not change the fact that there is a majority for Brexit in the commons now.
 
milo said:
MPs have very right to vote as their conscience tells them. That is what they are elected to do. It does not change the fact that there is a majority for Brexit in the commons now.
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Do you think MPs will be given a free vote or will they be expected to toe their party line?
 
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