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Politics, politics, politics

"I don't feel that it needs explicitly stating in advance that "Parliament will follow the outcome of the decision in the referendum" in order for them to have some responsibility to do so. I think that goes without saying."

What I was saying about Straw Man is Parliament have not voted on the matter as yet, they will probably vote in favour of enacting Article 50 and even with the proviso that they have a say over the terms is still in line with the decision of the referendum. The referendum was BREXIT, chosing terms of BREXIT was never part of the referendum, you may think that Government choses was part of it but this was not agreed and currently the Judges have ruled against this. Tory MP Stephen Philips seem to think that the vote was a starting point rather than a destination.
 
r-u-s-x said:
"I don't feel that it needs explicitly stating in advance that "Parliament will follow the outcome of the decision in the referendum" in order for them to have some responsibility to do so. I think that goes without saying."

What I was saying about Straw Man is Parliament have not voted on the matter as yet, they will probably vote in favour of enacting Article 50 and even with the proviso that they have a say over the terms is still in line with the decision of the referendum. The referendum was BREXIT, chosing terms of BREXIT was never part of the referendum, you may think that Government choses was part of it but this was not agreed and currently the Judges have ruled against this. Tory MP Stephen Philips seem to think that the vote was a starting point rather than a destination.
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What if the government chooses a Brexit that is materially exactly the same as the status quo? Would you consider that going against the public will?

I would, but I bet there's a lot of MPs who will be pushing for that.
 
scaramanga said:
What if the government chooses a Brexit that is materially exactly the same as the status quo? Would you consider that going against the public will?

I would, but I bet there's a lot of MPs who will be pushing for that.
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There will be a of voters who will consider free movement the status quo and going against the public will.

To answer your question I would consider a Status quo to go against the public will, I don't think that will happen. If it does happen you would think that the party would be unelectable and a party such as UKIP, who are promising to follow the public will then wins a majority.

Its a cluster F8ck due to poor planning, due largely to the fact no one envisioned we would be in this situation. Now we at this point are we have to follow due process as per our constitution and the rule of law. I do not want to be in a society where a Government can pick and choose when to follow this, its a dangerous precedence.

By rights all this should have been sorted pre vote, it was not and now we are here. We both have different view points on how to proceed (parliament vs Government), who is right or wrong is open to debate. What is not open to debate is how we are to proceed as this will be decided by the high court.

Just to reiterate this vote was not about blocking Brexit / Article 50- it was a vote on how the current laws state this should be done.
 
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If "Leave" was just one thing, then fine. Government go ahead with the mandate and deliver this one clear thing. But one term "leave" is highly complex. Leave could be many many many different things. Thus, we need transparency as the vote is actioned. Otherwise people on both sides will be angry with an outcome that doesn't represent them.

What better way is there to debate and pursue the best form of Leave than through our Democratic legislature?
 
r-u-s-x said:
I do not want to be in a society where a Government can pick and choose when to follow this, its a dangerous precedence.
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I agree. I think those that are angry about the judges decision need to think how they would feel if a Prime Minister that they did not support used executive power to remove a right that they held dear.
 
scaramanga said:
What if the government chooses a Brexit that is materially exactly the same as the status quo? Would you consider that going against the public will?

I would, but I bet there's a lot of MPs who will be pushing for that.
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The vote was decided (as in won/lost) on immigration and if the referendum was presented in a way that said free-movement was not coming to an end, the 'Leave' vote wouldn't have got off the ground. If the government wishes to follow the 'public will' then they will end free movement. It's a bit of a niche position amongst people who voted Brexit to also want to retain free movement of people. I don't know anybody who voted to leave that also wants to keep free movement. To be fair to the vicar's daughter, she is indicating that the government will seek an end to the free movement of people from the EU, so if it's following the public will that you are after, she might deliver it.
 
the dza said:
The vote was decided (as in won/lost) on immigration and if the referendum was presented in a way that said free-movement was not coming to an end, the 'Leave' vote wouldn't have got off the ground. If the government wishes to follow the 'public will' then they will end free movement. It's a bit of a niche position amongst people who voted Brexit to also want to retain free movement of people. I don't know anybody who voted to leave that also wants to keep free movement. To be fair to the vicar's daughter, she is indicating that the government will seek an end to the free movement of people from the EU, so if it's following the public will that you are after, she might deliver it.
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It's not what I'm after - I voted remain. Much like the majority involved in financial markets, I don't like uncertainty - it plays havoc with my investment values.

But I do consider it incredibly important that we follow the will of the many, and if I didn't have so much skin in the game, I'd have voted with them.

I've already spoken of May's inability to be a proper Conservative - she's a very long way from me on the Political Compass, I suspect.
 
milo said:
I'd be interested in your views on this article

https://www.ft.com/content/964afa06-8f0b-11e6-8df8-d3778b55a923

The EU collapsing is in no one's interests. It would cause massive harm to the UK and world economy.
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I don't think we should be trading services. Trade works when you trade different things - traditionally raw materials for manufactured goods. Trading services for services is just pointlessly moving money in circles with a few people creaming off a bit each time. We'd be much better trading advanced manufacturing for more lower end components

It also ignores the cultural/linguistic advantages of re-engaging the rest of the English-speaking world

It's the political machinations of the EU that need destroying. Economic co-operation (even the EEC up-to-1991) is fine
 
scaramanga said:
It's not what I'm after - I voted remain. Much like the majority involved in financial markets, I don't like uncertainty - it plays havoc with my investment values.

But I do consider it incredibly important that we follow the will of the many, and if I didn't have so much skin in the game, I'd have voted with them.

I've already spoken of May's inability to be a proper Conservative - she's a very long way from me on the Political Compass, I suspect.
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Ok, I thought you wanted the government to follow "the will of the people." My mistake. I know you voted to remain.
 
the dza said:
Ok, I thought you wanted the government to follow "the will of the people." My mistake. I know you voted to remain.
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What I want is whatever situation increases the wealth and wellbeing of me and my family the most.

What I think should happen is the government following the will of the people.
 
fudge "the will of the people" that got us Boris as Mayor of London and subsequently the West Ham free new London Stadium. :D
 
scaramanga said:
What I want is whatever situation increases the wealth and wellbeing of me and my family the most.

What I think should happen is the government following the will of the people.
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What is the will of the people - other than BREXIT we don't really know. Everyone I know who was BREXIT it was stop immigration - I am told by most papers that immigration was not an overriding factor. The leave campaign had a whole host of things that "were possibilities". In truth other than BREXIT we have no idea what the will of the people is. BREXIT was never defined
 
r-u-s-x said:
What is the will of the people - other than BREXIT we don't really know. Everyone I know who was BREXIT it was stop immigration - I am told by most papers that immigration was not an overriding factor. The leave campaign had a whole host of things that "were possibilities". In truth other than BREXIT we have no idea what the will of the people is. BREXIT was never defined
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I suspect it is the best deal that doesn't involve freedom of movement.
 
r-u-s-x said:
What is the will of the people - other than BREXIT we don't really know. Everyone I know who was BREXIT it was stop immigration - I am told by most papers that immigration was not an overriding factor. The leave campaign had a whole host of things that "were possibilities". In truth other than BREXIT we have no idea what the will of the people is. BREXIT was never defined
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It's anything and everything other than rule by the European Commission. It is essentially possibilities, but possibilities instead of resignation. Freedom to choose because of sovereignty regained
 
scaramanga said:
I suspect it is the best deal that doesn't involve freedom of movement.
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As do I - but can not say with confidence as it was not on the ballet and BREXIT terms were not defined pre vote, there was a whole spectrum of possibilities from Norway plus to WTO. The people have spoken, they want BREXIT, I just wish we knew what the people thought BREXIT would entail.

I am resigned to BREXIT, I understand it will go ahead, I now want the most pain free version which will save job. I hope very much it will involve financial passporting. I would hope this was the will of the people I do not know if this is the case. If I wanted a Hard BREXIT I would also not know if this was the will of the people.
 
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