Politics, politics, politics

[Gutter Boy]

Yes we do need to change the law, or make referendums binding as then Parliament has already agreed (not a lawyer but this seems correct).

On a separate note both you and Gutter Boy, Danish... have hugely different views on what Brexit should mean, if we have Swiss Brexit rather than full Brexit does that have any impact on "will of the people". Most of the leavers I spoke to pre election it was based on restricting immigration, if there is freedom of movement this disregards their will.

I'm actually not really fussed what comes next. I'm a liberal leaver, so am outward looking and international.

I do think our closest international relations should be with the countries we have cultural ties to - Canada, Australia and New Zealand. But generally my feeling is out of a stifling regional trading bloc and into the big wide world as a confident, independent and progressive country.

At this stage I just want the quickest and hardest Brexit possible, because I don't trust the power accumulation ethos of the European Commission. It feels a bit like the Prague Spring at the moment, with the Russian tanks looming near the border, ready to reassert themselves.

My great hope is that the EU completely collapses and we can form something better in its place. A partnership of co-operating sovereign nations - more like the Nordic Council. Or even the European Council; but without the Commission, Parliament, bureaucracy and machinations of a super-state.

 

[r-u-s-x]

I'm actually not really fussed what comes next. I'm a liberal leaver, so am outward looking and international.

I do think our closest international relations should be with the countries we have cultural ties to - Canada, Australia and New Zealand. But generally my feeling is out of a stifling regional trading bloc and into the big wide world as a confident, independent and progressive country.

At this stage I just want the quickest and hardest Brexit possible, because I don't trust the power accumulation ethos of the European Commission. It feels a bit like the Prague Spring at the moment, with the Russian tanks looming near the border, ready to reassert themselves.

My great hope is that the EU completely collapses and we can form something better in its place. A partnership of co-operating sovereign nations - more like the Nordic Council. Or even the European Council; but without the Commission, Parliament, bureaucracy and machinations of a super-state.

Was not trying to put words in your mouth just pointing out that your Brexit is vastly different to Scarra's Brexit - will you feel that you have been listened to if they keep freedom of movement of people and we keep the single market? Similar to Norway but closer as we want to keep Financial passport.

 

[Grays_1890]

MP's voted a majority of 6-1 to let the public vote as to whether we stay or leave the EU and now that the public voted to leave, the high court have stated that MP's need to vote again to release article 50?

If leaving the EU is blocked it changes nothing, the vote was to leave and the people of the country spoke in one massive voice, that fact can't be taken away.

The politic system is going to show its arse if they vote to remain against a democratic vote, good luck with that.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Was not trying to put words in your mouth just pointing out that your Brexit is vastly different to Scarra's Brexit - will you feel that you have been listened to if they keep freedom of movement of people and we keep the single market? Similar to Norway but closer as we want to keep Financial passport.

I don't like that because it doesn't resolve the sovereignty issue. We would still be dictated to by an authoritarian power. An EU in all-but-name would just continue the resentment and bring down future governments.

I think we should be dramatically moving to rebalance the economy. I would happily throw financial services under the bus and concentrating all energies on hi-tech R&D and advanced manufacturing, particularly centred on the northern cities. The Korean or Finnish model.

 

[the dza]

So another Tory MP has just resigned, that's two resignations in about a week. Will we have a constant media storm of how divided and disfunctional the Tory Party is now? What's that? Huge media bias you say? I wonder if they can spin it to somehow have a go at Corbyn.

 

[r-u-s-x01]

I don't like that because it doesn't resolve the sovereignty issue. We would still be dictated to by an authoritarian power. An EU in all-but-name would just continue the resentment and bring down future governments.

I think we should be dramatically moving to rebalance the economy. I would happily throw financial services under the bus and concentrating all energies on hi-tech R&D and advanced manufacturing, particularly centred on the northern cities. The Korean or Finnish model.

I get that you would like something different but if the government interpret Brexit to be the Norwegian model would you feel the mandate for Brexit has been fulfilled.

 

[scaramanga]

Why was it made an advisory referendum then? The voting change referendum was binding.

I suspect the Lib Dems insisted on that because they didn't trust the government.

In this case the same government who invoked the law would be the ones implementing the decision. Nobody thought we'd get as far as a referendum, because nobody realised quite what an arrogant bunch of tossers the EU were - everyone thought they'd bend a little to Cameron's requests. More importantly than all of that, I don't think anyone ever envisaged a scenario where Parliament wouldn't accept the will of the people, yet we're in a position now where a large number of people are encouraging them to do just that.

 

[Gutter Boy]

So another Tory MP has just resigned, that's two resignations in about a week. Will we have a constant media storm of how divided and disfunctional the Tory Party is now? What's that? Huge media bias you say? I wonder if they can spin it to somehow have a go at Corbyn.

Stephen Phillips is a leaver, and Lincolnshire was one of the strongest leave areas

So presumably this is an attack from that side of the party - on May/Hammond being too hesitant/backtracking? A UKIP defection?

 

[Gutter Boy]

I get that you would like something different but if the government interpret Brexit to be the Norwegian model would you feel the mandate for Brexit has been fulfilled.

No. It would be a step in the right direction. There would be no going back then without accepting the Euro and Schengen (which will never happen), so that would be positive.

But there would be fundamental flaws and dissatisfaction with such an arrangement and the movement towards sovereignty would continue, just delayed.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Stephen Phillips is a leaver, and Lincolnshire was one of the strongest leave areas

So presumably this is an attack from that side of the party - on May/Hammond being too hesitant/backtracking? A UKIP defection?

No he was a leaver but felt that BREXIT should have input from Parliament as per constitution. He left because of the governments position on overriding Parliament

 

[r-u-s-x]

No. It would be a step in the right direction. There would be no going back then without accepting the Euro and Schengen (which will never happen), so that would be positive.

But there would be fundamental flaws and dissatisfaction with such an arrangement and the movement towards sovereignty would continue, just delayed.

the fundamental point I am making is not just you but the public in general what is the Will of the people, for Scara it is Norwegian plus, for you it is Hard Brexit - This is why Parliament have to be involved in the discussion as the Government have a position but this does not represent the will of the people as there are so many variables and we just don't know what it is.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I'm actually not really fussed what comes next. I'm a liberal leaver, so am outward looking and international.

I do think our closest international relations should be with the countries we have cultural ties to - Canada, Australia and New Zealand. But generally my feeling is out of a stifling regional trading bloc and into the big wide world as a confident, independent and progressive country.

At this stage I just want the quickest and hardest Brexit possible, because I don't trust the power accumulation ethos of the European Commission. It feels a bit like the Prague Spring at the moment, with the Russian tanks looming near the border, ready to reassert themselves.

My great hope is that the EU completely collapses and we can form something better in its place. A partnership of co-operating sovereign nations - more like the Nordic Council. Or even the European Council; but without the Commission, Parliament, bureaucracy and machinations of a super-state.

That is word for word what i feel.

I do not think you me and scara have very different views on brexit. The ones most worried about immigration are the poorly paid which i do not think includes us and then a handful of racists.

All the people i know voted out did so because they want to engage with the world and not be part of a corrupt failing experiment.

 

[r-u-s-x]

I suspect the Lib Dems insisted on that because they didn't trust the government.

In this case the same government who invoked the law would be the ones implementing the decision. Nobody thought we'd get as far as a referendum, because nobody realised quite what an arrogant bunch of tossers the EU were - everyone thought they'd bend a little to Cameron's requests. More importantly than all of that, I don't think anyone ever envisaged a scenario where Parliament wouldn't accept the will of the people, yet we're in a position now where a large number of people are encouraging them to do just that.

There would always have been a referendum regardless of EU making concessions, they may have thought stay would win but they never thought there would never be a referendum as this was a pledge. Either making it non binding was bad politics or on purpose. If on purpose it would either be to have a get out if the vote was to leave (as per your view) or the belief that parliament should have a say (as per my view).

" In January 2013, Cameron promised that, should his Conservative Party win a parliamentary majority at the 2015 general election, the UK Government would negotiate more favourable arrangements for continuing British membership of the EU, before holding a referendum on whether the UK should remain in or leave the EU"

As yet Parliament not accepting the will of the people is a bit of a straw man.

 

[Gutter Boy]

the fundamental point I am making is not just you but the public in general what is the Will of the people, for Scara it is Norwegian plus, for you it is Hard Brexit - This is why Parliament have to be involved in the discussion as the Government have a position but this does not represent the will of the people as there are so many variables and we just don't know what it is.

I appreciate that. I just don't think you can decide what to do when there are literally 200 variables (other countries in the world). There's far too many 'what ifs' to even think about.

What if say on the day we invoke it, we get offered a place in NAFTA? That changes everything and we might leave the EU on WTO terms immediately to take advantage of that opportunity. What if the upcoming German elections go in such a way that they want to join this second Reformation too?

How we redefine our relationship with the world can't be captured in a single vote. It will be an emerging process over the next decade.

 

[the dza]

Stephen Phillips is a leaver, and Lincolnshire was one of the strongest leave areas

So presumably this is an attack from that side of the party - on May/Hammond being too hesitant/backtracking? A UKIP defection?

No, apparently resigned due to May's position on Parliament re. Brexit.

 

[Gutter Boy]

That is word for word what i feel.

I do not think you me and scara have very different views on brexit. The ones most worried about immigration are the poorly paid which i do not think includes us and then a handful of racists.

All the people i know voted out did so because they want to engage with the world and not be part of a corrupt failing experiment.

Hilaire Belloc used to say that Sussex bred a particular strange hybrid of radicalism and conservatism

 

[milo]

I'm actually not really fussed what comes next. I'm a liberal leaver, so am outward looking and international.

I do think our closest international relations should be with the countries we have cultural ties to - Canada, Australia and New Zealand. But generally my feeling is out of a stifling regional trading bloc and into the big wide world as a confident, independent and progressive country.

At this stage I just want the quickest and hardest Brexit possible, because I don't trust the power accumulation ethos of the European Commission. It feels a bit like the Prague Spring at the moment, with the Russian tanks looming near the border, ready to reassert themselves.

My great hope is that the EU completely collapses and we can form something better in its place. A partnership of co-operating sovereign nations - more like the Nordic Council. Or even the European Council; but without the Commission, Parliament, bureaucracy and machinations of a super-state.

I'd be interested in your views on this article

https://www.ft.com/content/964afa06-8f0b-11e6-8df8-d3778b55a923

The EU collapsing is in no one's interests. It would cause massive harm to the UK and world economy.

 

[milo]

Re. Stephen Phillips. This is from an interview he gave with the Guardian last month:

The campaign to give parliament the right to determine our future relationship with the EU is not about reversing the referendum result. Nor is it about subverting the will of the British people, or having a second bite of the cherry. It’s about the sovereignty that I and others cherish, a sovereignty that resides principally in the House of Commons and in its ability, when given the opportunity, to inform and direct the government of the day.

Not giving parliament the chance, before article 50 is invoked, to say where it thinks these negotiations should end up is, at its core, undemocratic, unconstitutional and likely to exacerbate the divisions in our society to which the referendum gave rise. It also ignores the views of nearly half the people who voted in the referendum, who were perfectly content with our place in the EU.

Ignoring them, even though they were (just) in the minority, is not merely divisive but plain wrong.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...exit-keep-parliament-sovereign-wont-be-gagged

 

[r-u-s-x]

I appreciate that. I just don't think you can decide what to do when there are literally 200 variables (other countries in the world). There's far too many 'what ifs' to even think about.

What if say on the day we invoke it, we get offered a place in NAFTA? That changes everything and we might leave the EU on WTO terms immediately to take advantage of that opportunity. What if the upcoming German elections go in such a way that they want to join this second Reformation too?

How we redefine our relationship with the world can't be captured in a single vote. It will be an emerging process over the next decade.

Yes, I agree that a single vote can not capture the will of the people - but does that support the need for parliamentary input rather than negate this need?

The people voted BREXIT so we have to have BREXIT but what type should be decided by parliament (the peoples representatives, parliamentary democracy) not Government?

Its been a very messy process and will continue to be so, very few people will be happy with the outcome. Remainers due to leaving, and different flavours of BREXIT due to going to far or not far enough.

All involved were convinced we would Stay including those campaigning to leave, so it has been really poorly planned. As I said before I am at a loss at how this will play out.

 

[scaramanga]

There would always have been a referendum regardless of EU making concessions, they may have thought stay would win but they never thought there would never be a referendum as this was a pledge. Either making it non binding was bad politics or on purpose. If on purpose it would either be to have a get out if the vote was to leave (as per your view) or the belief that parliament should have a say (as per my view).

" In January 2013, Cameron promised that, should his Conservative Party win a parliamentary majority at the 2015 general election, the UK Government would negotiate more favourable arrangements for continuing British membership of the EU, before holding a referendum on whether the UK should remain in or leave the EU"

As yet Parliament not accepting the will of the people is a bit of a straw man.

You're right, there would have been a referendum still, but I think it would have been a slam dunk for Remain had Cameron realised how strong his hand was and played it properly.

I don't feel that it needs explicitly stating in advance that "Parliament will follow the outcome of the decision in the referendum" in order for them to have some responsibility to do so. I think that goes without saying.