Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
that pretty much nails me
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Politics, politics, politics
- Thread starter markysimmo
- Start date
that pretty much nails me
johnola
Dean Austin
Granularity of the vote was not per country, per city/county, per town per street, household or per person. It was across the entirety of the U.K.
Of course, but the trick is to shift where the centre ground is. There was a time when Tory governments built 300k council houses per year and didn't privatise anything that moved. Thatcher changed where the 'centre' is (at least, economically) and it hasn't really been challenged ever since. But, imo, the uneven recovery from the financial crisis has made enough people at least question the status quo.
For the centre ground to shift leftwards, we need politicians and political parties willing to part ways with the way Thatcher did things. What is happening in the Labour Party is a symptom of the pendulum trying to swing back the other way. IMO, it'll take time but I think it's the natural order of politics for things to flow from left to right and back again, with the centre ground shifting along the way.
milo
Jack L. Jones
I don't think that Thatcher shifted the centre ground. She benefitted immensely from an unelectable Labour Party, a split centre left and a big dose of good fortune. As a result of this, she was in power long enough that many of her policies became irreverseable.
What is happening with the Labour Party now is not a sign of the pendulum swinging back the other way. It is hemmaraging support. It is only interested in talking to people that agree with it and it is going to end in electoral disaster.
Well I disagree. She did shift it -- her own party thought she was a bit nuts when she first came on the scene, over time many of her policies became the norm. People had had enough of the politics of the day, there was an appetite for something else and she knew it. All politicians in power benefit from the failings of their opposition, that's a moot point imo. She changed the thinking in her own party and, subsequently, of opposition parties.
I'm saying that there is an appetite for something else right now -- the politics of Thatcher (continued by Blair and Cameron) have reached a point where many people are STARTING to look to something else. What is happening in the Labour Party is a symptom of that, it didn't just happen for the sake of it imo.
And if you think the centre just stays the centre no matter what, I disagree. Look at gay marriage as a great example -- in the 80s, that would have been a cause of the 'loony left' and yet now it's in the centre ground of politics. The same as Tory governments of the past having policies to the left of Blair (regarding social housing for example) because that was where the centre was at the time.
The centre ground can and does shift. It takes politicians with conviction and a populace with an appetite for change. I'm not saying Corbyn and Labour will shift it, mind you. But someone will, no doubt about it.
The centre ground can and does shift. It takes politicians with conviction and a populace with an appetite for change. I'm not saying Corbyn and Labour will shift it, mind you. But someone will, no doubt about it.
glasgowspur
Luka Modric
People often espouse one view and vote another. Self interest will win out.
That's thatchers legacy.
That's not Thatcher's legacy, that's human nature. It's how politics has been forever.
Ask anyone if they'd like us to have the best healthcare system in the world and they'd say "Yes". Ask them if every person in the world should have food, shelter, education, etc and the answer is the same.
Ask them those same questions with an honest and accurate description of what it would do to their already disgustingly punitive tax bills and they'll all change their answers.
It's why opinion polls tend to lean to the left, because those questions are never asked in that manner.
I agree, and I think the essence of politics is the bargaining between the two points in bold and the methods used to achieve the first point.
glasgowspur
Luka Modric
But IMV Thatcher brought that to the centre.
Whether deliberate or not I can't say, but it's easier now for people to have that attitude.
Every decision made at the ballot is now a balance between what is good for the individual marking get their x or the greater good.
By allowing the general public to own their homes and shares in the utilities companies it created a sense of responsibility for themselves.
Of course it's not acceptable to say that in public but it's the truth.
Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
The right wing consensus will only last for as long as the selfishness that sustains it is satiated. When it all turns to brick and it will, watch the great abandonment. Everybody will revert to being good socialists then. Heck during the GFC even corporate heads begged for state support i.e. Chrysler et al. The neo-liberal hypocrites... privatise the profit....socialise the loss.
milo
Jack L. Jones
How would you define neo-liberal?
Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
Anybody who subscribes to trickle down economics, anyone who subscribes to so-called free trade agreements, anyone who supports privatisation,anyone who supports cuts to welfare etc, anyone who subscribes to a small government ideology. That will do for now.
milo
Jack L. Jones
Thanks.
Is that any privatisation? Do you think that all of the privatised companies should be denationalised?
Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
Re-nationalised. Yes, some. Of course it becomes very hard to do, unless said industry is run into the ground and is operating at a loss. There can be no justification for basic utilities, such as water being in private hands. It makes as much sense as privatising the air.....wait.....oh the Tories would do that, you just know they would.
How about telecoms?
So anyone who isn't a swivel-eyed, mouth-foaming, trot then?
Danishfurniturelover
the prettiest spice girl
With the boundary changes at least I am less likely to have to put up with Caroline Lucas in the local media all the bloody time. Her politics are not that bad a bit backwards and anti business but I just hate the whole preaching thing when her and her husband own 3 houses, she does not live in Brighton and she lectures everyone in Brighton but has only got in due to the amount of stupid students who do not even pay council tax.
Danishfurniturelover
the prettiest spice girl
If small government makes me a neo liberal, sign me up, I think the less civil servants and politicians interfering the better things would be.