Politics, politics, politics

[Glenda's Legs]

Then they were fools.

It was made very clear before the referendum that free trade required free movement and there isn't a government on this planet that would sign away free trade.

Agreed. But I would say it was the Remain campaign making that clear. I don't recall (but may be wrong) any of the different Leave factions acknowledging that fact.

 

[scaramanga]

It was made clear by the remain camp. The leave side were all very specific about controlling our borders and making the vote a vote on immigration.

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org...s_based_non_discriminatory_immigration_system

"...Fourth, by the next general election, we will create a genuine Australian-style points based immigration system. The automatic right of all EU citizens to come to live and work in the UK will end, as will EU control over vital aspects of our social security system. EU citizens will be subject to legislation made by those we elect in Westminster, not in Brussels. We could then create fairness between EU citizens and others, including those from Commonwealth countries."

Statement by Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel, and Gisela Stuart

And you genuinely think they would have signed away free trade with the EU given the chance?

I can tell you now that they wouldn't.

 

[the dza]

And you genuinely think they would have signed away free trade with the EU given the chance?

I can tell you now that they wouldn't.

That is not the point I am making. The people in charge of the leave campaign clearly said that voting leave was voting to end free movement. It is there in black and white. If you are saying that they lied and misled people into voting for something that they had no intention of delivering, then perhaps you are right.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I still think the UK will eventually have a Free Trade agreement (of sorts) with limited free movement of people (i.e. EU citizens near the top of the queue to come to the UK and work, but not with full access to come and go)

 

[Glenda's Legs]

I still think the UK will eventually have a Free Trade agreement (of sorts) with limited free movement of people (i.e. EU citizens near the top of the queue to come to the UK and work, but not with full access to come and go)

I could see it being free movement for the EU as it is now, but not for any future members. If we want free trade, I can't see how we can get that with better terms than any other current EU member state.

 

[AuroRaman]

I'm fairly sure most of us could run a country of about 20k moose famers and a pile of snow without much hassle. Especially if it were a country whose main claim to fame is that everyone there is a bit nice.

I think that's a very unfair statement but there you go.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[scaramanga]

That is not the point I am making. The people in charge of the leave campaign clearly said that voting leave was voting to end free movement. It is there in black and white. If you are saying that they lied and misled people into voting for something that they had no intention of delivering, then perhaps you are right.

No, but it's relevant to the point I was making.

If your response wasn't to the then I think you've directed it at the wrong poster.

All I was saying is that anyone voting to close our borders is a fool and that no government would give away free trade with the EU.

 

[SteveAWOL]

sure they are then when we have a vote people should also except the majority decision as I have had to on countless occasions when we have had governments elected that I have hated. But to continue to talk down and actively try to harm the countries prospects by spooking the markets is a disgrace that so many on the remain side have indulged in.
...

Indeed, can't be doing much to improve confidence when the FT's lead article talks of post Brexit crisis...

And even the Daily Mail are publishing charts which foretell economic gloom under a headline pointing the finger at Brexit...

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...tic-deteriotiation-following-Brexit-vote.html

 

[Hotshot-Tottenham]

Indeed, can't be doing much to improve confidence when the FT's lead article talks of post Brexit crisis...

And even the Daily Mail are publishing charts which foretell economic gloom under a headline pointing the finger at Brexit...

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...tic-deteriotiation-following-Brexit-vote.html

Surely there's a difference between talking down or 'foretelling' and simply reporting numbers.

You're making out that these articles are predicting something. As far as I can see they're reporting factual figures, things that have already happened.

 

[AuroRaman]

Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[parklane1]

People can make all sorts of claims about trade and free movement going forward but until people who matter have sat down and discussed it then its all speculation and guesswork, and in most instances depends on what stance they took before the vote.

 

[Kenyan Spur]

We can all play tit for tat.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36864273

It's not all good. It's not all bad. Like most things, the truth is probably somewhere in between.

People are allowed to differ.

sure they are then when we have a vote people should also except the majority decision as I have had to on countless occasions when we have had governments elected that I have hated. But to continue to talk down and actively try to harm the countries prospects by spooking the markets is a disgrace that so many on the remain side have indulged in.

On other news Hollande has said that the border controls will stay in Calais, odd because part of project fear was that we would have to have them in the UK, but the French president has just confirmed they will be staying in France, we could call that a lie by the remain side I guess, or perhaps they would rather go on about what some bloke wrote on the side of a bus?

Why anyone would want to be part of a club that stops you from agreeing your own trade deals with say for example Kenya is beyond me, what has it to do with the EU if Britain does a trade agreement with another country not in the EU. Can you not see the EU are just gangsters and bullies, this is not the sort of club I would ever want to be a part of, but then seeing how so many of my fellow countrymen have behaved since the result, I am not sure I want to raise my son in such a backward looking nation.[/QUOTE]

Britain is one of Kenya's largest trade partner.
However, I am not sure if this direct or through a EU trade agreement.

 

[scaramanga]

Britain is one of Kenya's largest trade partner.
However, I am not sure if this direct or through a EU trade agreement.

Currently we are unable to trade with anyone except via protectionist EU agreements.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

sure they are then when we have a vote people should also except the majority decision as I have had to on countless occasions when we have had governments elected that I have hated. But to continue to talk down and actively try to harm the countries prospects by spooking the markets is a disgrace that so many on the remain side have indulged in.

On other news Hollande has said that the border controls will stay in Calais, odd because part of project fear was that we would have to have them in the UK, but the French president has just confirmed they will be staying in France, we could call that a lie by the remain side I guess, or perhaps they would rather go on about what some bloke wrote on the side of a bus?

Why anyone would want to be part of a club that stops you from agreeing your own trade deals with say for example Kenya is beyond me, what has it to do with the EU if Britain does a trade agreement with another country not in the EU. Can you not see the EU are just gangsters and bullies, this is not the sort of club I would ever want to be a part of, but then seeing how so many of my fellow countrymen have behaved since the result, I am not sure I want to raise my son in such a backward looking nation.

Britain is one of Kenya's largest trade partner.
However, I am not sure if this direct or through a EU trade agreement.[/QUOTE]

But we have to go through the EU to do so. So take it as we do not actually leave the corrupt failing gangster club and we want to agree a free trade agreement with another country, why do we have to go through the EU first?

I know your not the one I should be asking that of Kenyan, but it is such a simple question yet one that can never be answered: why do we have to go to the EU if we want to agree a free trade agreement with another country?

I understand that the EU wants certain standards on products sold in EU countries, so if we brought something from Kenya that we then decided to sell on in the EU it would have to agree to EU product standards, but for just the UK it makes no sense for the EU to stick their nose in business that does not concern them.

Also I shall be waiting with baited breath to see what concessions they ask of America when they sign the free trade agreement with them, if they intend to penalise the UK and give us worse terms just because we voted to leave a political union and be purely a trading partner then I would ask the remain people is that a group you really want to be a part of.

@milo I lost your post, but for the record I think a recession is much like a winter cold in a human, annoying and it take a little bit of extra effort to get past it, but frankly a good thing. It forces the country to work harder and be leaner, I was on the building sites in the early 90's when that one hit, the was no work around so I ended up working in a cellar in a hotel lugging around barrels of beer. It taught me to put money away when I had it rather than spend all the time and it taught me to be prepared to be flexible to do other jobs.

Possibly a controversial comment coming up, but I thought that recession in 2008 was not tough enough and did not effect enough people because people did not learn enough lessons from it (personal borrowing is creeping back up to 2007 levels) the are also to many fcuking coffee shops about the place which tells me people did not tighten their belts. Nope I do not think recessions(3 quarters of negative growth) are necessarily a bad thing.

I expect a small recession next year, but if the government use it as an excuse to sell bonds on a massive road building project, with new motorways and bypasses then it will actually be a good thing.

 

[scaramanga]

@Danishfurniturelover - The Last recession did none of the clearing out that a recession is supposed to do because there was so much cheap credit available.

 

[the dza]

People can make all sorts of claims about trade and free movement going forward but until people who matter have sat down and discussed it then its all speculation and guesswork, and in most instances depends on what stance they took before the vote.

Hollande is one of the people who matter though. The French President is going to have a fair bit of input into what sort of deal Britain gets with the EU, being that France and Germany are the biggest players within it. Now whether our politicians want access to the single market no matter what, is another matter. But if they do, then free movement will continue (according to Hollande).

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

@Sexagenarianlover - The Last recession did none of the clearing out that a recession is supposed to do because there was so much cheap credit available.

Yes and because the tories were to scared to make proper cuts that the country needed, I would liken it to taking off a plaster fast and quick, sure a few companies would have gone bust. But they would have been replaced by new ones.

The fact that interest rates are so low is criminal in my opinion and has encouraged the spend spend spend nature of so many of the public and indeed government departments. Seeing these ads on t.v. for loan companies it is almost like the country did not learn its lesson.

 

[Kenyan Spur]

Currently we are unable to trade with anyone except via protectionist EU agreements.

Sorry to be so naive. So you mean all our exports to the UK ( flowers, fruits, vegetables, tea. coffee etc. ) are through EU agreements.
What about UK's exports to Kenya. Are these also through EU agreements.

I am sure Wanyama's transfer to Spurs and the hundreds of thousands of UK tourists to Kenya are not part of any EU agreement.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Sorry to be so naive. So you mean all our exports to the UK ( flowers, fruits, vegetables, tea. coffee etc. ) are through EU agreements.
What about UK's exports to Kenya. Are these also through EU agreements.

I am sure Wanyama's transfer to Spurs and the hundreds of thousands of UK tourists to Kenya are not part of any EU agreement.

Under EU law we can not sell or buy to any country unless the Knobs in Brussels tell us it is ok, or we will be fined and unlike the French we will pay it.

Wanyama who I am looking forward to watching was signed from Southampton and English club so Kenya(I am sure it is a lovely country) has nothing to do with that deal actually. As for work permits and how Wanyama is allowed to work in England, well I could not tell you how that all works and I doubt people that work in Brussels could tell you how a player could be turned down for a work permit in England but get one for Belgium.

One of the pros of leaving the EU if we are to discuss migration is that we could then allow more people in from other parts of the world if they are deemed to have the skills this country needs, I am sure we both hope that is Wanyama.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Lovely response from our allies and still partners in europe France. Rightly they are concerned with their security and have a heighten level of border control, but to totally under-man the checkpoints is just an act of petulance. Terrorist can easily cross many of their other neighbouring borders but they ensure they make it hell for anyone trying to leave Dover. It's not been good at Dover since the Charlie Hebdo incident, they normally only have one station manned until 8am, to have only 3 out of 7 manned after that on the busiest day for travelling is criminal.