Politics, politics, politics

[scaramanga]

LOL at the "pot-session" translation

Can you remeber the daye this was broadcast because I need to hunt this down like a wolf!

There was something very similar on Radio 4 this morning around 8.50 too.

 

[the dza]

She needs to be Tuckered:

 

[Dorothy]

How desperate and clichéd is that, "they all lie." So we just dismiss it then? Wonder what would happen if Dorothy caught out Milliband in a lie. All hell would break out. Once again...one set of standards for one and another (lower) for others. This is the retort of the partisan hack.

I try take a less tabloid approach to it all than you. I'd only be desperate if complacency and stupidity allowed the good work that has been clearly carried out to be undone, as it was under the last Champagne Socialist government. The Coalition Government are in power because they won the election. They were voted in by the British people. Are they perfect? Good grief no. Importantly though their combined efforts have seen unemployment fall, they have seen confidence grow, investment return, they have seen us outperform much of the eurozone and small businesses have started to flourish again. There is still a long way to go, many challenges ahead but we are better off than we were and the coalition Government are not the ones preaching division, constant smear and try to play the same tired old game. From the very first day they were in opposition they lacked leadership, real ideas and they have just trotted out their cost of living crisis, millionaire, divisional, classist claptrap over and over again. It is in reality the only way they can sway voters by appealing to this evolutionary challenged mentality where people are pre-programmed with such a limited outlook. While they do this, the coalition get on with running and improving the country. The irony is that every negative facet of their attack on the coalition government is largely down to their own mismanagement of the country. Cost of Living crisis? Yes you allowed people to borrow what they could not afford to payback. False prosperity. All hot air and bluster. People will look at the reality of the economy, of education,of health (NOTE: reality) and they will vote accordingly.

Politicians lie. Not all of them but a fair amount, regardless of party. Politicians get caught in scandals regardless of party. For every Tory, Lib Dem tax evader or avoider there is an equal Labia member. They like everyone else in society are susceptible to the same failings. Some may argue it is not lying, some will call it spin, some will present carefully considered arguments. Any surprise that Millipede accused someone in The house of Tax Avoidance and made it sound like Tax Evasion? A slip or carefully planned and delivered to damage without slandering? If he and his party spent less time looking to create division and working the lowest common denominator and more time on genuine deliverable policies to better the Nation then they would stand a far greater chance of getting in to power.

So no, I see it as one set of standards for everyone.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

I'd rather be described as a champagne socialist, than a two bob capitalist. There are plenty of the latter around here. Your attempts at humour by sending up the name of the Labour Party are infantile by the way. Not addressing the rest, as it was a typical meandering rant, which made little sense.

 

[Baleforce]

great post Dorothy

[you'll have to imagine the clapping smiley]

 

[NWND]

I'd rather be described as a champagne socialist, than a two bob capitalist. There are plenty of the latter around here. Your attempts at humour by sending up the name of the Labour Party are infantile by the way. Not addressing the rest, as it was a typical meandering rant, which made little sense.

It does make sense though. I'm tired of the whole left vs right positioning of British Politics. The reality is that people are often not left or right leaning, they are a mixture of the two. There are many people that would like less immigration, to leave the EU and continued investment in the armed forces and nuclear deterent, but at the same time, would like more social provision and more investment in public services, greater regulation of private enterprise and the City as well as controlling and reducing tax loop-holes for multinationals.

I believe that people are MORE informed and more well-read and that younger generations are less likely to follow the 'I will vote Labour because my father voted Labour and his father before that voted Labour and I live in a northern industrial town and everyone votes Labour and always has done' narrative of the past. People are more likely to weigh up their own opinions and feelings at the time and research party policies and choose the party that most closely matches their own personal view point at that moment in time. It's why the vote is spread more evenly and why you are seeing a drop-off in voter engagement generally and why you saw a coalition government at the last election and the prediction is of another hung parliament this time round.

My parents voted Labour all their lives and my father is a member of the Labour party. I used to be a member of the Labour party and I voted in the last leadership election, for David Miliband, Ed's brother. I thought Ed was a throw-back to the bad old Labour of Gordon Brown who just slung whatever mud the trade unions would want slung around in exchange for political backing and funding. My fears have proven largely right.

Ed just carries the old Labour agenda of kicking big business and proposing 'populist' policies that when analysed have no real long-term benefits to anyone.

I voted Labour at the last general election, my last vote out of misguided loyalty.

I can't seriously vote for Labour in this election as I don't think Ed Milliband would make a good PM and I don't believe the party would govern the country effectively. We have been recovering well from the recession under the current coalition. Where I live there is construction everywhere, more jobs and me and my family are living more comfortably than we have done for the last 10 years.

Some may argue the country would have recovered anyway, but then you look at other countries that went into recession and they have not recovered as quickly or as effectively as we have.

I'm not saying i'm considering voting Conservative, however, as my concern is that it is the 'coalition' that has been effective, in that the Conservatives are generally good at generating a good economy, but that the Lib Dems have held them back from some of their policies that adversely impact on social provision and have ensured a more watered down 'tory' government that has been quite effective overall.

I think Cameron is overall a strong leader and always speaks very well and represents British interests abroad very well.

Whether he will get my vote come the election I'm not sure, but I have absolutely zero confidence in the current Labour party to deliver anything beneficial for me or for the UK as a whole.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

The reality is that people are often not left or right leaning, they are a mixture of the two. There are many people that would like less immigration, to leave the EU and continued investment in the armed forces and nuclear deterent, but at the same time, would like more social provision and more investment in public services, greater regulation of private enterprise and the City as well as controlling and reducing tax loop-holes for multinationals.

You just described me to a tee there mate.

Found this interesting along a political line http://www.scotsman.com/news/world/top-putin-critic-boris-nemtsov-murdered-in-moscow-1-3704837

I could be accused of being an extremist, but I find Russia to be an increasing concern.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Ought to add as well as more social provision and investment in public services I have no problems with gay marriage, and if your going to allow two same sex couples to marry they should be entitled to the same tax breaks and pensions as different sex marriages.
Also do not have a problem with multicultrinisim though I think the security services and the country as a whole should be paying special attention to the Muslim community to make sure young muslims do not get radicalised it would include banning certain socities at universities and may upset some but would be for the long term good of the country and most importantly muslims place in the country in future years.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

.

It does make sense though. I'm tired of the whole left vs right positioning of British Politics. The reality is that people are often not left or right leaning, they are a mixture of the two. There are many people that would like less immigration, to leave the EU and continued investment in the armed forces and nuclear deterent, but at the same time, would like more social provision and more investment in public services, greater regulation of private enterprise and the City as well as controlling and reducing tax loop-holes for multinationals.

I believe that people are MORE informed and more well-read and that younger generations are less likely to follow the 'I will vote Labour because my father voted Labour and his father before that voted Labour and I live in a northern industrial town and everyone votes Labour and always has done' narrative of the past. People are more likely to weigh up their own opinions and feelings at the time and research party policies and choose the party that most closely matches their own personal view point at that moment in time. It's why the vote is spread more evenly and why you are seeing a drop-off in voter engagement generally and why you saw a coalition government at the last election and the prediction is of another hung parliament this time round.

My parents voted Labour all their lives and my father is a member of the Labour party. I used to be a member of the Labour party and I voted in the last leadership election, for David Miliband, Ed's brother. I thought Ed was a throw-back to the bad old Labour of Gordon Brown who just slung whatever mud the trade unions would want slung around in exchange for political backing and funding. My fears have proven largely right.

Ed just carries the old Labour agenda of kicking big business and proposing 'populist' policies that when analysed have no real long-term benefits to anyone.

I voted Labour at the last general election, my last vote out of misguided loyalty.

I can't seriously vote for Labour in this election as I don't think Ed Milliband would make a good PM and I don't believe the party would govern the country effectively. We have been recovering well from the recession under the current coalition. Where I live there is construction everywhere, more jobs and me and my family are living more comfortably than we have done for the last 10 years.

Some may argue the country would have recovered anyway, but then you look at other countries that went into recession and they have not recovered as quickly or as effectively as we have.

I'm not saying i'm considering voting Conservative, however, as my concern is that it is the 'coalition' that has been effective, in that the Conservatives are generally good at generating a good economy, but that the Lib Dems have held them back from some of their policies that adversely impact on social provision and have ensured a more watered down 'tory' government that has been quite effective overall.

I think Cameron is overall a strong leader and always speaks very well and represents British interests abroad very well.

Whether he will get my vote come the election I'm not sure, but I have absolutely zero confidence in the current Labour party to deliver anything beneficial for me or for the UK as a whole.

Are you seriously saying that you joined and voted for the Labour Party because your parents were members? My support for Labour is based on my ideology and world view and has nothing to do with what my parents did. It just so happens, that whenever Tories get in power my standard of living goes backwards and so does that of the people I associate with. I do not understand how you can claim two mutually exclusive beliefs. That people are better informed and less engaged. Doesn't one require the other? For the most part, the dis-engaged are ignorant. As for being informed, well that depends on where they get their information from. The Tory dominated press? By the sounds of things you do not have an ideological background. Not un-common in todays society. It's called the death of history.

P.S. You must be one of the very few people in Britain, who believes that the Lib-Dems have done anything constructive in government. They are going to get smashed at this election.

 

[the dza]

The Coalition Government are in power because they won the election. They were voted in by the British people.

I voted Lib Dem at the last election. I did not vote for the Lib Dems to enable a Tory government, even a 'watered down' one. As such, I will never vote Lib Dem again -- I suspect I'm not alone.

 

[NWND]

.

Are you seriously saying that you joined and voted for the Labour Party because your parents were members? My support for Labour is based on my ideology and world view and has nothing to do with what my parents did. It just so happens, that whenever Tories get in power my standard of living goes backwards and so does that of the people I associate with. I do not understand how you can claim two mutually exclusive beliefs. That people are better informed and less engaged. Doesn't one require the other? For the most part, the dis-engaged are ignorant. As for being informed, well that depends on where they get their information from. The Tory dominated press? By the sounds of things you do not have an ideological background. Not un-common in todays society. It's called the death of history.

P.S. You must be one of the very few people in Britain, who believes that the Lib-Dems have done anything constructive in government. They are going to get smashed at this election.

Yes, I'm saying that I joined and voted for the Labour party because my parents were members. It's a not-uncommon theme regarding politics in this country. Why do you think there are 'safe seats' for both parties no matter how well they perform, who makes up the party leadership and what policies they put forward? I don't see why you see this as surprising?

I've voted Labour all my voting life. However I feel I have reached a point where I'm unable to continue to vote for them or anyone just out of principle.

I also find it strange that you feel that the better informed/less engaged argument is something you can't understand. I feel the more people have scrutinised the traditional party politics of this country, the more it has turned the average person off. I certainly think that was the case for me. Rather than happily going along, voting Labour every election come-what-may, I think there are an increasing number of people that instead of mindlessly casting a vote, are thinking about what they are voting for and either voting, or not voting accordingly.

It explains the rise of minority parties.

Do you think the press is 'Tory dominated'? Depends on what press you choose to read. Frankly, the fact that the media outlets traditionally support one or other of the parties is again part of the problem with British politics as it adds to the general 'men behaving like children slinging mud at each other' feel, as The Sun rip 'Red Ed' to shreds at every opportunity and The Mirror pleads with people to 'give the Torys a bashing'.

I left ideology behind when I began a proper career, got married, got a mortgage and had to think about my family rather than being a daft student pining after 'society and wanting to fix society's ills'.

And as to the Lib Dem's doing anything constructive, well nobody actually knows what they've done. That's my point. They could have positively influenced the government and kept the Tory's in check, but they could have not done a lot. They have been part of a government that has seen a marked improvement in the country's economy and prospects. Whether they get massacred at the next election is neither here nor there.

 

[NWND]

I voted Lib Dem at the last election. I did not vote for the Lib Dems to enable a Tory government, even a 'watered down' one. As such, I will never vote Lib Dem again -- I suspect I'm not alone.

I find this an interesting viewpoint. A coalition needed to happen in order to form a government. Someone had to enter into coalition with the Conservatives and it made sense that it wasn't Labour, because otherwise there would not have been a strong opposition. So out of interest, why decide not to vote for the Lib Dem's BECAUSE they entered into a coalition government?

 

[the dza]

I find this an interesting viewpoint. A coalition needed to happen in order to form a government. Someone had to enter into coalition with the Conservatives and it made sense that it wasn't Labour, because otherwise there would not have been a strong opposition. So out of interest, why decide not to vote for the Lib Dem's BECAUSE they entered into a coalition government?

It's very simple. I did not vote for the Lib Dems to enable Tory rule. This is what occurred, so they will never again receive my vote. Nobody HAD to enter into a coalition with the Tories, there is such a thing as a minority government. The Lib Dems sold out for a shot at power, and as a consequence, they will be crushed at the next election.

 

[NWND]

It's very simple. I did not vote for the Lib Dems to enable Tory rule. This is what occurred, so they will never again receive my vote. Nobody HAD to enter into a coalition with the Tories, there is such a thing as a minority government. The Lib Dems sold out for a shot at power, and as a consequence, they will be crushed at the next election.

But surely every other party would have done the same thing given the same opportunity? Plus, surely they would have known that entering into a coalition with the Conservatives would likely alienate and erode their voter base? The country was in the midst of an economic disaster. That was not a time for a minority government. It needed a strong coalition and the Lib Dems did their duty as sacrificial lambs. In a way, I think that should be applauded. Only IMVHO.

 

[scaramanga]

Why do you think there are 'safe seats' for both parties no matter how well they perform, who makes up the party leadership and what policies they put forward?

Not sure about where you live, but Chichester's a safe seat because it has a highly affluent and educated electorate. Nothing to do with families or habit.

 

[the dza]

But surely every other party would have done the same thing given the same opportunity?

When the Lib Dems get killed at the GE, other parties may think twice about that in future. We'll have to agree to disagree, but I think you will find my opinion is shared by a lot of ex Lib Dem voters.

 

[NWND]

Not sure about where you live, but Chichester's a safe seat because it has a highly affluent and educated electorate. Nothing to do with families or habit.

I don't think that would make it a safe seat. It doesn't explain why they continually vote for one party despite that party changing leadership, performance and policy direction over the years.

 

[scaramanga]

I don't think that would make it a safe seat. It doesn't explain why they continually vote for one party despite that party changing leadership, performance and policy direction over the years.

Because, despite all of those events, a Conservative government will always provide a better economy and more rewards to those who work for a loving.

Actually, that's not quite true. No party offers rewards for working but the Conservatives provide less in the way of punishment for it.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Yes, I'm saying that I joined and voted for the Labour party because my parents were members. It's a not-uncommon theme regarding politics in this country. Why do you think there are 'safe seats' for both parties no matter how well they perform, who makes up the party leadership and what policies they put forward? I don't see why you see this as surprising?

I've voted Labour all my voting life. However I feel I have reached a point where I'm unable to continue to vote for them or anyone just out of principle.

I also find it strange that you feel that the better informed/less engaged argument is something you can't understand. I feel the more people have scrutinised the traditional party politics of this country, the more it has turned the average person off. I certainly think that was the case for me. Rather than happily going along, voting Labour every election come-what-may, I think there are an increasing number of people that instead of mindlessly casting a vote, are thinking about what they are voting for and either voting, or not voting accordingly.

It explains the rise of minority parties.

Do you think the press is 'Tory dominated'? Depends on what press you choose to read. Frankly, the fact that the media outlets traditionally support one or other of the parties is again part of the problem with British politics as it adds to the general 'men behaving like children slinging mud at each other' feel, as The Sun rip 'Red Ed' to shreds at every opportunity and The Mirror pleads with people to 'give the Torys a bashing'.

I left ideology behind when I began a proper career, got married, got a mortgage and had to think about my family rather than being a daft student pining after 'society and wanting to fix society's ills'.

And as to the Lib Dem's doing anything constructive, well nobody actually knows what they've done. That's my point. They could have positively influenced the government and kept the Tory's in check, but they could have not done a lot. They have been part of a government that has seen a marked improvement in the country's economy and prospects. Whether they get massacred at the next election is neither here nor there.

I understand it, that's why I reject it. You really are naïve, if you believe that the dis-engaged are a consequence of being informed. Most take no interest, as a consequence of being ignorant, not out of some learned rejection of the established party system.

The rise of the minority parties can be explained in many ways. Some are little more than the political expression of interest groups, whilst others are splinter groups from the main parties. Other represent emerging regional tendencies So your analysis is a bit simplistic.

Re the Lib Dems. 'Nobody actually knows what they have done.' Is that a serious comment? Politics needs more ideology, not less. Otherwise we end with the American system where there is only a cigarette paper between the main parties. The consequence of this, is that the political debate during elections into an auction aimed at voters in marginal seats and this undermines true democracy.

As for your "I gave ideology away when' I got a proper career, got married and got a mortgage," well that is really sad. Those things didn't change me into a cynic. Perhaps a Tory vote would not be such as poor choice for you, as you sound like an un-reconstructed Conservative.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Because, despite all of those events, a Conservative government will always provide a better economy and more rewards to those who work for a loving.

Actually, that's not quite true. No party offers rewards for working but the Conservatives provide less in the way of punishment for it.

"Work for a loving." Well now we know the basis of Scara's abiding commitment to the Tories. He's a lady of the night.