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Politics, politics, politics

Bullet said:
But what do you think if (as some say) the referendum was technically an advisory non-binding referendum for MPs "to consider", not a mandate to act on the outcome.

Also Farage said he would ask for a second referendum if he lost by a narrow margin, i.e. that Remain needed to win by two thirds to end it and avoid a second referendum.

Surely if the referendum was advisory and not binding, and did not have a clear majority e.g. 60:40, it should not stand as unavoidable law.
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There's no if about it, it was advisory and the government has no legal obligation to follow it.

David Allen Green said:
The referendum on EU membership was advisory not mandatory. It was deliberately drafted by Parliament not to have any legal consequences. (The last UK-wide referendum, on the AV voting system, did have such a binding provision, but this time Parliament chose not to include one).

As such, the result of the poll has no more legal standing than the result of a consultation exercise. It was a glorified opinion survey, and that is what Parliament intended it to be.

The result is not a "decision" for the purposes of Article 50(1) and, on this basis, the other provisions in the provision are not engaged.

(For more on this, see this excellent post by Professor Mark Elliott.)

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1200279093330132
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This is a link to the Mark Elliott blog that he mentions

https://publiclawforeveryone.com/2016/06/24/brexit-legally-and-constitutionally-what-now/
 
Grays_1890 said:
Cameron is a charming man, and I get that, I think he is likable.

But lets be clear, he is the main reason remain lost, he went to the EU with grand talks of winning on behalf of the UK, big talk of pulling out, then came back with a deal, a terrible deal and was happy to present that as a win.

He is right when he said people are disillusioned with politicians, he is front of the queue.
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Could not agree more, if the remainers want to call anyone for losing the vote it he should be the number one in line.
 
I'm gonna need the aid of a few of our more economically savvy to answer this.

I was having a conversation with a couple of colleagues at work this weekend (referendum related) and one of the guys bought up the subject of money leaving the UK in the form payments by immigrants to their families back home. It was one of those subjects that sparked the debate a bit because at the end of the day if someone earned that money then they can use it how they see fit, but the counter being that it is effectively money leaving the UK economy, as those wages aren't being reinvested back into the system.

It went on back and forth, discussing that it's no different than UK citizens sending money they earned abroad back home to their families, or retiree's going abroad and spending their savings on a house in France or Spain. The counter coming back that the number of migrants here sending money out is greater than the number of UK migrants sending money in.

I'm in the middle of all this and can see each side's point of view, but have they got their facts straight?
 
Cochise said:
I'm gonna need the aid of a few of our more economically savvy to answer this.

I was having a conversation with a couple of colleagues at work this weekend (referendum related) and one of the guys bought up the subject of money leaving the UK in the form payments by immigrants to their families back home. It was one of those subjects that sparked the debate a bit because at the end of the day if someone earned that money then they can use it how they see fit, but the counter being that it is effectively money leaving the UK economy, as those wages aren't being reinvested back into the system.

It went on back and forth, discussing that it's no different than UK citizens sending money they earned abroad back home to their families, or retiree's going abroad and spending their savings on a house in France or Spain. The counter coming back that the number of migrants here sending money out is greater than the number of UK migrants sending money in.

I'm in the middle of all this and can see each side's point of view, but have they got their facts straight?
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It's a minimal amount compared to what they spend here.

Take a minimum wage (or a little above). Take out rent, food, utilities, clothing, travel, etc. There's not much left to send home compared to what's been spent here.
 
Cochise said:
I'm gonna need the aid of a few of our more economically savvy to answer this.

I was having a conversation with a couple of colleagues at work this weekend (referendum related) and one of the guys bought up the subject of money leaving the UK in the form payments by immigrants to their families back home. It was one of those subjects that sparked the debate a bit because at the end of the day if someone earned that money then they can use it how they see fit, but the counter being that it is effectively money leaving the UK economy, as those wages aren't being reinvested back into the system.

It went on back and forth, discussing that it's no different than UK citizens sending money they earned abroad back home to their families, or retiree's going abroad and spending their savings on a house in France or Spain. The counter coming back that the number of migrants here sending money out is greater than the number of UK migrants sending money in.

I'm in the middle of all this and can see each side's point of view, but have they got their facts straight?
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I am not aware of any decent data on this so it is all a bit speculative. Frankly, what people do with their wages once they have paid their tax, is their own business as far as I am concerned. I have know quite a few people from Australia and New Zealand who have come over here to work for a few years to get the money together for a property back home. Good luck to them. I would expect that the sums of money involved here are dwarfed by those moved off shore by wealthy Brits avoiding tax.
 
maybe i'm wrong but i think the money they may be going on about is money sent to their kids back home, there was a program on not long ago about a Polish constuction worker who got his wages and then extra money for his wife and kids from the goverment to send home to them. They interviewed his wife who was in Poland and she said she was setting up a tea shop.
 
Pound lowest price against the Dollar for 30 years. Personally think it will fall further simply as who would buy now? Who will invest with the UKs credit rating reduced, the account deficit (we import a lot more than we export), politics in turmoil, a leadership vacuum and no clear Brexit plan.

More money wiped off the UK than we've paid into the EU for 15+ years. Never mind £150m odd a week stats, billions have been wiped off the UK in 2 days!
 
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galeforce said:
can anyone who voted leave honestly say that a 52/48 result the other wouldn't have left them feeling a bit annoyed?
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Speaking for myself i think annoyed is the wrong word, tinkled off maybe but i will tell you that i would not resort to name calling and crying for another vote like a bad loser.
 
I know of many Poles, Latvians, Lithuanians, eastern europeans etc who come over just to work here seasonally when jobs are aplenty, like in warehouses such as Amazon, Argos Marks and Spencer in the run up to Xmas from Aug to Dec, they live in houses of multiple occupency sometimes 2 or 3 in a bedroom, make up to 5000 quid, pay NI and income tax but because their earnings for the tax year end up being below the 10 grand level they apply for and get a full tax rebate.

Back in their homeland that kind of money goes a long way.
 
It will come back, the will be new opportunities for growth and money on the market has a habit of going up and down.

It is also clear people in the city unhappy with the result are doing everything they can to destroy things in a very churlish manner. Shows how out of touch people are with the working class. They pretend to listen to them but if they do not get their own way then they have a scorched earth policy.

That said we need a new prime minister in the next month and they should all work through the summer to get the exit sorted properly.
@ Galeforce if the result was that close the other day I would have accepted it, had a little moan but got on with it. Boris has already hinted at concessions because it was so close so is trying to unify the country.

As for Farage he was not part of the official leave campaign, he also is not an elected member of parliament so anyone who thought he had the right to make policy promises is an idiot. While a lot of us disagree about things on here none of us are idiots.

Farage is a one issue campaigner, he gave a country a chance to vote on something against all odds and state sponsored media he got millions to vote, not everyone's cup of tea but he got people talking about politics and democracy.
 
parklane1 said:
Speaking for myself i think annoyed is the wrong word, tinkleed off maybe but i will tell you that i would not resort to name calling and crying for another vote like a bad loser.
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Yep and some, not people on here but in government are trying to destroy the economy because they did not get their own way.

The head of the CBI just came out and said he actually thinks we will be ok and the will be new opportunities for us as a country. Wonder if the BBC will put that on the news.
 
scaramanga said:
It's a minimal amount compared to what they spend here.

Take a minimum wage (or a little above). Take out rent, food, utilities, clothing, travel, etc. There's not much left to send home compared to what's been spent here.
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Fair enough, good to know. I think the starting issue was the tax credits @parklane1, but it built up from there. It probably galls people more though that they know that the money going back can buy a lot more in eastern europe than it can in the UK.

Other question from myself. Knowing a few people from across Europe, the money is a big factor in coming to the UK, as most have said that they preferred the slower pace of their home countries. So on that subject, if if every job in the EU just paid the same irrespective of the country it is in (I would earn the same wage as someone in Hungary doing the same job), would that not in turn lead to less migration? Economically speaking how would that play out?
 
indianspur said:
I know of many Poles, Latvians, Lithuanians, eastern europeans etc who come over just to work here seasonally when jobs are aplenty, like in warehouses such as Amazon, Argos Marks and Spencer in the run up to Xmas from Aug to Dec, they live in houses of multiple occupency sometimes 2 or 3 in a bedroom, make up to 5000 quid, pay NI and income tax but because their earnings for the tax year end up being below the 10 grand level they apply for and get a full tax rebate.

Back in their homeland that kind of money goes a long way.
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Actually I know of a Latvian who does similar but as he is one of my best friends I look the other way. Never understood why it was allowed though.
 
SpurMeUp said:
More money wiped off the UK than we've paid into the EU for 15+ years. Never mind £150m odd a week stats, billions have been wiped off the UK in 2 days!
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It doesn't matter how many times you or the economic illiterates on Facebook make that point, it doesn't and never will work like that.

As an example, read up briefly on the difference between a balance sheet and an income statement. It's pretty much the same thing.


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Cochise said:
Fair enough, good to know. I think the starting issue was the tax credits @parklane1, but it built up from there. It probably galls people more though that they know that the money going back can buy a lot more in eastern europe than it can in the UK.

Other question from myself. Knowing a few people from across Europe, the money is a big factor in coming to the UK, as most have said that they preferred the slower pace of their home countries. So on that subject, if if every job in the EU just paid the same irrespective of the country it is in (I would earn the same wage as someone in Hungary doing the same job), would that not in turn lead to less migration? Economically speaking how would that play out?
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It should eventually level out, yes.

In theory, the increase in wages would just push up prices until costs there were the same as here. In reality the economy of each of those economies would tank before those prices got high enough to cover the increase in wages. People don't like high inflation like that though, it ruins their savings and people who have been paying into pensions for 50 years suddenly find out those pensions are worthless and have to rely on the sate for a living.

In order for the market to be effective, there really always needs to be a constant supply of labour from further down the value chain. This is where the EU has been reasonably good for us as there's been a supply of cheap labour from countries that are reasonably similar in culture and language (within certain bounds) to fill those roles. I think it would have been significantly more difficult to fill those roles from other continents as easily.

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