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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Baleforce said:
So have a minimum wage.
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We do. The problem is the gig economy, lack of regulation of employers, other weakened labour laws around hours and conditions etc. Because of neo-liberalism, everything is rigged towards a race to the bottom. Until that is fixed, you can't even considered opening borders to cheap labour. It's just a route to exploitation of both the incomers and the existing resident population.
 
Gutter Boy said:
We do. The problem is the gig economy, lack of regulation of employers, other weakened labour laws around hours and conditions etc. Because of neo-liberalism, everything is rigged towards a race to the bottom. Until that is fixed, you can't even considered opening borders to cheap labour. It's just a route to exploitation of both the incomers and the existing resident population.
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In the case of highly paid doctors?
 
Baleforce said:
In the case of highly paid doctors?
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I think everyone is in favour of high-skilled immigration - doctors, researchers, (and footballers?!) etc. But that's why there's a pretty simple visa route for them. The question was more about general freedom of movement, which usually means unskilled workers.
 
Gutter Boy said:
I think everyone is in favour of high-skilled immigration - doctors, researchers, (and footballers?!) etc. But that's why there's a pretty simple visa route for them. The question was more about general freedom of movement, which usually means unskilled workers.
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If the visa routes are so simple why are we so short staffed in the NHS?

Any work is a skill, as is the attitude to do it.
 
Gutter Boy said:
I think everyone is in favour of high-skilled immigration - doctors, researchers, (and footballers?!) etc. But that's why there's a pretty simple visa route for them. The question was more about general freedom of movement, which usually means unskilled workers.
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Well, the visa salary threshold is higher than the average post doc starting salary - so maybe not everyone
 
P.D. said:
I don't need to justify anything Farage says, never voted for him and never will. My parents are immigrants and I've always been pro immigration but can understand others concerns and it does need to be managed better.

Those things could have been true, govt's now have total control over immigration, money that went to the EU could have been spent elsewhere etc. The rhetoric has been dialled up to much in recent years - immigration has suddenly turned into ECHR withdrawl, general anti wokeness etc - it's a real turn off for me.
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Personally wasn’t asking you to justify anything, only acknowledge the miss selling by Farage. Literally nothing promised has come to fruition. The idea that it could have, is weak too.

It was always predicted we’d be less well off with less cash to spend. The issues with immigration and the need for some imported labour were outlined and understood by many prevote. The biggest myth was “Sovereignty” an abstract concept no one really feels. But it was the one thing they could stand behind that was semi-true. What good has it done us having this control? None. Because other forces override it. We will follow EU regulations for trade standards, of course. We would need to work with the EU and we wouldn’t be able to dictate terms, that was obvious too.


So Brexit just gave us a lot of stupid politicians running our country. Those without forsight or acumen.
 
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monkeybarry said:
Well, the visa salary threshold is higher than the average post doc starting salary - so maybe not everyone
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But to be fair there are about 20 PhDs hunting every postdoc vacancy, so it's not something that there is a skills gap of. It's at the higher levels that you want to buy in the world's best.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Personally wasn’t asking you to justify anything, only acknowledge the miss selling by Farage. Literally nothing promised has come to fruition. The idea that it could have, is weak too.

It was always predicted we’d be less well off with less cash to spend. The issues with immigration and the need for some imported labour were outlined and understood by many prevote. The biggest myth was “Sovereignty” an abstract concept no one really feels. But it was the one thing they could stand behind that was semi-true. What good has it done us having this control? None. Because other forces override it. We will follow EU regulations for trade standards, of course. We would need to work with the EU and we wouldn’t be able to dictate terms, that was obvious too.


So Brexit just gave us a lot of stupid politicians running our country. Those without foreign or acumen.
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It's not though, if the things he said were possible (I'm sure he made a load of stuff up too) then without being in power there's little else he can do. A government could cease all immigration tomorrow if they wanted too, there's no laws preventing us from doing so. In face a large reason the tories took a kicking is because they're not doing things that are within their powers that they promised to do so - that's strong democracy where they had nowhere to hide.
 
P.D. said:
It's not though, if the things he said were possible (I'm sure he made a load of stuff up too) then without being in power there's little else he can do. A government could cease all immigration tomorrow if they wanted too, there's no laws preventing us from doing so. In face a large reason the tories took a kicking is because they're not doing things that are within their powers that they promised to do so - that's strong democracy where they had nowhere to hide.
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That’s the point, they weren’t possible in the real world. Brexit just separated out the political dreamers from those with foresight and acumen.

Yes in theory you could stop immigration, but in reality UK farms would cease a lot of food production. Even more businesses would leave the UK because they couldn’t get talent if you didn’t allow any immigration. The NHS would fail and healthcare and care homes would just be for the rich, because no one else could afford the UK wages needed to attract carers.

So was it ever possible? No. Absolutely never. The whole escapade was mis sold and now people are shy and avoiding that truth. Which gives Farage legitimacy in some people’s eyes. In reality everything that was promised was naive and unworkable. Where’s the cash for the NHS? That was “possible”. Everything is possible 😂

UKIP, Brexit, Reform they are all about making unworkable promises that sound good. They make sense until you scratch the surface. Once you do you find out these people making the naive promises should be on the back benches of politics, on the fridges
 
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Gutter Boy said:
This is quite interesting news (excuse the crap website): https://www.thestar.co.uk/business/...-engineers-in-cuts-at-research-centre-4698772

It seems the UK's plans to use small (modular) nuclear power plans are being closed down - well the place that was supposed to be designing and building them is anyway. So this suggests the plan is just to go for the handful of big sites nuclear backing-up wind and solar.
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I'll have to dig deeper...could effect the internet RR have in this tech area?
 
SpurMeUp said:
That’s the point, they weren’t possible in the real world. Brexit just separated out the political dreamers from those with foresight and acumen.

Yes in theory you could stop immigration, but in reality UK farms would cease a lot of food production. Even more businesses would leave the UK because they couldn’t get talent if you didn’t allow any immigration. The NHS would fail and healthcare and care homes would just be for the rich, because no one else could afford the UK wages needed to attract carers.

So was it ever possible? No. Absolutely never. The whole escapade was mis sold and now people are shy and avoiding that truth. Which gives Farage legitimacy in some people’s eyes. In reality everything that was promised was naive and unworkable. Where’s the cash for the NHS? That was “possible”. Everything is possible 😂

UKIP, Brexit, Reform they are all about making unworkable promises that sound good. They make sense until you scratch the surface. Once you do you find out these people making the naive promises should be on the back benches of politics, on the fridges
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Possible for a government with the right level of ambition and drive. No one was arguing for zero migration, just at a reduced level where the UK sets the terms. Even now the UK could increase training places in key areas like doctors, dentists etc but choose not too. It's true pretty much everything is possible, like the 2 child benefit cap could be removed if the govt wanted too. They could divert funds, raise tax elsewhere to fund it etc.

No one expects Reform, Greens etc to get in power so it's long been expected that they can promise whatever they like and not really get scruitinised.

Funnily enough on the farming side we won't need help producing food soon, I think we'll see a lot more of this over time. Seems silly for a food importing country to use agricultural land for solar farms. Better to build them on lower grade land or stick to wind. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgxqn9v0jdxo
 
P.D. said:
Possible for a government with the right level of ambition and drive. No one was arguing for zero migration, just at a reduced level where the UK sets the terms.
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Well those who voted Brexit and Tory because they expected lower migration have been right royally shafted! Triple the immigration! What you and they don’t appreciate is it was always a fib. The promise wasn’t real. It was a tool they used to gain power. It’s an old trick used by politicians. Point to the other, The immigrant, to get attention and votes. Farage was on record saying HE used this to get Brexit over the line.

Any thing is possible…you or I become PM, Nots Forest could win the PL…possible? In reality everyone knows this is never happening, but it’s possible.

If you were PM and you could shut the doors to migration but ruin Uk universities, send more businesses away from the UK, cripple the NHS and carehomes, you’d probably shy away too.

Of course there things that can be done and Labour are probably better placed to affect change ironically. The Tory’s value business interests more than poor disaffected people who lament immigration.

P.D. said:
Even now the UK could increase training places in key areas like doctors, dentists etc but choose not too.
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I think places are capped at uni to keep the current docs employed. Isn’t it set by a union?
P.D. said:
It's true pretty much everything is possible, like the 2 child benefit cap could be removed if the govt wanted too. They could divert funds, raise tax elsewhere to fund it etc.

No one expects Reform, Greens etc to get in power so it's long been expected that they can promise whatever they like and not really get scruitinised.

Funnily enough on the farming side we won't need help producing food soon, I think we'll see a lot more of this over time. Seems silly for a food importing country to use agricultural land for solar farms. Better to build them on lower grade land or stick to wind. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgxqn9v0jdxo
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Farming is a good case study of Brexit. It promised so much - no wasteful CAP, no EU setting standards. In reality eu standards are higher for the consumer and protect us. And the subsidies were far better for farmers than what they have now. Fields are left to be wild meadows which the government pays for or turned into solar.

The epiphany you need to make is this: governing a nation or multiple nations isn’t easy. And the EU isn’t some force for bad. It actually does a better job of setting standards and checks, within its remit, than our nation state does generally. Just ask farmers and fisherman who were also duped. Both are far worse off now. The sunny uplands nowhere to be seen.
 
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