Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Baleforce]

That was my


That was my point, until their concerns are addressed they'll continue to vote for the far right

But their concerns are about lies made up by the far right.

 

[glasgowspur]

But their concerns are about lies made up by the far right.

It doesn't matter if they are true or not, they need to be addressed. Ignore it at your peril.

 

[Baleforce]

It doesn't matter if they are true or not, they need to be addressed. Ignore it at your peril.

We also need to address the urgent threat of monsters from mars.

 

[glasgowspur]

We also need to address the urgent threat of monsters from mars.

Nobody is complaining about monsters from Mars, well not yet anyway.
Dismissing a growing number of people that their fears are not valid, while insinuating that they are racists, misogynistic, homophobic etc, is only going to make it worse.
They are not being listened to, their fears are not being allayed, if anything they being stoked because they are not being listened to.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

It doesn't matter if they are true or not, they need to be addressed. Ignore it at your peril.

So we are dealing with stupid, gullible misguided people. Usually you're wasting your time trying to reason with this type of person.
Most of what goes on in your life is created/engineered by yourself. To self reflect, self critique, look inward is a valuable skill. Blaming others is purely a self exoneration game, and sadly, makes them feel good about themselves.
Luckily for them, they live in an age ripe for negativity and group think.

A tinkle poor government for the last 10 years and capitalist system that been failing (but not allowed to fail) is a more obvious reason for their ills.

But they choose to gravitate towards people like Farage and Trump and Le Pen, which is laughable as I thought they were looking for politicians that will do something 'for them' ....when they're siding with people that are only in it for themselves.

No-one is ignoring them or dismissing them, far right ideology is dangerous.
But as shown in the UK and in France enough people know (and all to well, remember) the ugliness that can bring.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Nobody is complaining about monsters from Mars, well not yet anyway.
Dismissing a growing number of people that their fears are not valid, while insinuating that they are racists, misogynistic, homophobic etc, is only going to make it worse.
They are not being listened to, their fears are not being allayed, if anything they being stoked because they are not being listened to.

Are their fears immigration?
Are their fears ...they don't have enough money?
Are their fears jobs?

Ironically Starmer has very much started off with a remit of 'listening' and 'service'...is this resonating with any reformers?

 

[P.D.]

But their concerns are about lies made up by the far right.

High migration numbers aren't a lie though, I don't think anyone seems to want the fight that migrants are needed. Even Starmer hasn't bothered trying that argument. They'll have to address it or change things around enough with high growth and general improvements that it stops being a concern for them.

 

[glasgowspur]

So we are dealing with stupid, gullible misguided people. Usually you're wasting your time trying to reason with this type of person.
Most of what goes on in your life is created/engineered by yourself. To self reflect, self critique, look inward is a valuable skill. Blaming others is purely a self exoneration game, and sadly, makes them feel good about themselves.
Luckily for them, they live in an age ripe for negativity and group think.

A tinkle poor government for the last 10 years and capitalist system that been failing (but not allowed to fail) is a more obvious reason for their ills.

But they choose to gravitate towards people like Farage and Trump and Le Pen, which is laughable as I thought they were looking for politicians that will do something 'for them' ....when they're siding with people that are only in it for themselves.

No-one is ignoring them or dismissing them, far right ideology is dangerous.
But as shown in the UK and in France enough people know (and all to well, remember) the ugliness that can bring.

That's not dismissive?
Do you think that is going to win back voters?
Calling them names isn't going to win anyone back. it's not just the UK, it's the whole western world that's having these issues, many of whom have more left leaning governments than the tories.

Far right idealogy is dangerous, the concern for me is that we can see a drift towards it and it's being treated as an anomaly, good will always win out.
We've seen often enough that isn't always the case.

 

[glasgowspur]

Are their fears immigration?
Are their fears ...they don't have enough money?
Are their fears jobs?

Ironically Starmer has very much started off with a remit of 'listening' and 'service'...is this resonating with any reformers?

I don't know any reform voters, or at least any that will admit to it.
I'm the typical floating voter, no one owns my vote, it's borrowed, I will vote for who I think is best at the time.
I've voted for the three major parties, I could never bring myself to vote for Reform, or the Snp, I can't think what would drive anyone to vote for them.

 

[monkeybarry]

That's not dismissive?
Do you think that is going to win back voters?
Calling them names isn't going to win anyone back. it's not just the UK, it's the whole western world that's having these issues, many of whom have more left leaning governments than the tories.

Far right idealogy is dangerous, the concern for me is that we can see a drift towards it and it's being treated as an anomaly, good will always win out.
We've seen often enough that isn't always the case.

I think there is something else central to this - and that is trust.
Should you call someone stupid and gullible stupid and gullible? Ideologically - yes. In practice - no. It won't get them inside. Stupid and gullible is also somewhat subjective.
But what you can do (and what I think Starmer will absolutely do) is better truthful and steadfast. He'll do what he says he'll do and be open about it, even when it's uncomfortable.

You'll get truth. That will restore balance with the disenfranchised.
Are they stupid? Everyone is stupid in a subject they don't fully understand. That's why we defer to those that are experts. But we only defer to them if we trust the person and environment within which they operate.
Are they gullible? Replace gullible with "sold to". We are all sold to. Why did people believe cigarettes were healthy? And now, because of information and trust, believe cigarettes are unhealthy?

The Tories created a petridish of lies. Why try to seek truth in the pool of lies when I. You can just accept the convenient "truth" and II. The supposed experts are probably lying anyway.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

That's not dismissive?
Do you think that is going to win back voters?
Calling them names isn't going to win anyone back. it's not just the UK, it's the whole western world that's having these issues, many of whom have more left leaning governments than the tories.

Far right idealogy is dangerous, the concern for me is that we can see a drift towards it and it's being treated as an anomaly, good will always win out.
We've seen often enough that isn't always the case.

It's not names it's character observations based on evidence, first hand evidence as I posted the other day.

There may be some, but many you're not winning back anyway ...they have a fixed mindset, based in negativity and blame. (Ironically the Levy thing is a microcosm of a similar situation).

What are they hoping for from (eg) Reform, someone to listen to their concerns? They'll be told what they want to hear and what to believe. And what's the end game?...when will they be happy....when they get to go all Tommy Robinson?

As I and @monkeybarry says Starmer is going to give the 'im a decent human being' approach a go. Let's hope that at least gets recognized in the short term. My worry is the holes and hurdles he needs to navigate to get us back on our feet are not going to be easy, they'll be pain for sure (sadly another trigger ).

 

[SpurMeUp]

High migration numbers aren't a lie though, I don't think anyone seems to want the fight that migrants are needed. Even Starmer hasn't bothered trying that argument. They'll have to address it or change things around enough with high growth and general improvements that it stops being a concern for them.

The really funny thing is, UKIP, Brexit and Leave, the Conservatives and now Reform have all used immigration to win votes. Yet none of them have delivered! Immigration has tripled since Blair! When we were in the EU

What do the mugs do after being so spectacularly let down? …vote for more hyperbole from the same lying clams. You’d think people would learn.

 

[P.D.]

The really funny thing is, UKIP, Brexit and Leave, the Conservatives and now Reform have all used immigration to win votes. Yet none of them have delivered! Immigration has tripled since Blair! When we were in the EU

What do the mugs do after being so spectacularly let down? …vote for more hyperbole from the same lying clams. You’d think people would learn.

Only the conservatives have been in power do do anything. It is true though now that any immigration (bar the boats) is only possible because the government have allowed it, they do have full control of it now.

I said a few pages back that it's not as simple as having control, no one is honest enough to make the case for immigration or have the honest convo's about it e.g. if we want to double doctors places to 20K per year then we could do so with the right planning, investment, education resources etc but it's far cheaper to import a doctor from abroad. The payoff is also years away, well before the next election.

Surprised nothing has been made of this in the election - https://www.theguardian.com/society...-double-number-of-medical-students-in-england

 

[SpurMeUp]

Only the conservatives have been in power do do anything. It is true though now that any immigration (bar the boats) is only possible because the government have allowed it, they do have full control of it now.

I said a few pages back that it's not as simple as having control, no one is honest enough to make the case for immigration or have the honest convo's about it e.g. if we want to double doctors places to 20K per year then we could do so with the right planning, investment, education resources etc but it's far cheaper to import a doctor from abroad. The payoff is also years away, well before the next election.

Surprised nothing has been made of this in the election - https://www.theguardian.com/society...-double-number-of-medical-students-in-england

Well Brexit happened too. I can’t think of one promise Farrage made that has been delivered upon. All very well blaming others, but the bold claims were made by UKIP. Easy deal. Control immigration. EU money for the the NHS. It’s almost the inverse that has occurred!

Less money for the NHS not more.
Higher immigration from further afield, not less!
A difficult deal we’re still working on.

Care to acknowledge Farage miss sold bold simplistic claims to the masses?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Only the conservatives have been in power do do anything. It is true though now that any immigration (bar the boats) is only possible because the government have allowed it, they do have full control of it now.

I said a few pages back that it's not as simple as having control, no one is honest enough to make the case for immigration or have the honest convo's about it e.g. if we want to double doctors places to 20K per year then we could do so with the right planning, investment, education resources etc but it's far cheaper to import a doctor from abroad. The payoff is also years away, well before the next election.

Surprised nothing has been made of this in the election - https://www.theguardian.com/society...-double-number-of-medical-students-in-england

It's not easy to do. There are only about 24 medical schools in the country - most universities don't have them. And universities have been massively defunded over the last 5-10 years, so they don't have the staff or space to either expand the existing medical schools or create new ones at other universities. They also need partnerships with local hospitals, but hospitals have been in survival mode for so long, they've not been open to anything additional like staff training.

 

[Baleforce]

What’s the problem with freedom of movement labour?

Let’s be a part of something bigger, the world doesn’t stop at the channel.

Bring in the skills we don’t, send the skills we do have where they are needed.

Let’s think globally.

 

[P.D.]

It's not easy to do. There are only about 24 medical schools in the country - most universities don't have them. And universities have been massively defunded over the last 5-10 years, so they don't have the staff or space to either expand the existing medical schools or create new ones at other universities. They also need partnerships with local hospitals, but hospitals have been in survival mode for so long, they've not been open to anything additional like staff training.

I did say with the right level of investment, planning and resource. If a govt wanted to do it they could do so but it's simpler and cheaper for them to source doctors from other countries.

 

[P.D.]

Well Brexit happened too. I can’t think of one promise Farrage made that has been delivered upon. All very well blaming others, but the bold claims were made by UKIP. Easy deal. Control immigration. EU money for the the NHS. It’s almost the inverse that has occurred!

Less money for the NHS not more.
Higher immigration from further afield, not less!
A difficult deal we’re still working on.

Care to acknowledge Farage miss sold bold simplistic claims to the masses?

I don't need to justify anything Farage says, never voted for him and never will. My parents are immigrants and I've always been pro immigration but can understand others concerns and it does need to be managed better.

Those things could have been true, govt's now have total control over immigration, money that went to the EU could have been spent elsewhere etc. The rhetoric has been dialled up to much in recent years - immigration has suddenly turned into ECHR withdrawl, general anti wokeness etc - it's a real turn off for me.

 

[Gutter Boy]

What’s the problem with freedom of movement labour?

Let’s be a part of something bigger, the world doesn’t stop at the channel.

Bring in the skills we don’t, send the skills we do have where they are needed.

Let’s think globally.

Social dumping is the problem. It incentivises big businesses to move vast communities around to achieve the lowest possible wages, rather than paying decent wages to the people who are already there.

 

[Baleforce]

Social dumping is the problem. It incentivises big businesses to move vast communities around to achieve the lowest possible wages, rather than paying decent wages to the people who are already there.

So have a minimum wage.