Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[scaramanga]

They have no need to offer us any decent deal, it'll be the best deal for them, it's their market. I don't get why there was an expectation they'd offer us the same deal as anyone else when it's not the same circumstance, we're the first country to leave the Bloc. It was said by REMOANERS

If there's no need for punitive measures, why wouldn't they choose the most frictionless form of agreement? That's better for them and us.

 

[StephenH]

£130 billion in lost growth is another figure I have seen.

And all for "Sovereignty".............what the feck does that matter. The thought of Boris's government with an 80 seat majority is terrifying and will do more harm to this country than the might of the Third Reich could only dream about.

 

[scaramanga]

And all for "Sovereignty".............what the feck does that matter. The thought of Boris's government with an 80 seat majority is terrifying and will do more harm to this country than the might of the Third Reich could only dream about.

Sovereignty is the ability to set our own rules to suit what we need as a country. We make our own internal rules, we trade with whomever, however we like, we shape our economy to suit what we require most.

It's at best disingenuous and at worst half-witted to paint it as some kind of slogan for England shirt wearing racists.

 

[Diamond Lights]

If there's no need for punitive measures, why wouldn't they choose the most frictionless form of agreement? That's better for them and us.

Because they want the EU, as a collective, to be better in than out. As every remoaner said would happen. They're not gonna tear down an entire 50 year project because Little Britain wants out.

So if you want to leave, sure, leave, but don't expect the same benefits outside the club than when you was in the club.

Why are we still discussing this perspective? It was obvious 4 years ago, it's the same today. I hate the Gym analogy but it works, if you left your gym at £50 per month, they don't let you continue to come in and use the Bench press for free now do they? They'll charge you £20 for a day pass if you want access that's different to before. You cant sit there and complain "i only want to pay a fiver, i don't see the problem you're still getting £5 a month and i still get what i want".

As someone who strikes me as fairly capitalist in their views, even you can see the logic in this surely? You might not like it, but it's exactly what you would do in the same situation.

 

[AuroRaman]

Sovereignty is the ability to set our own rules to suit what we need as a country. We make our own internal rules, we trade with whomever, however we like, we shape our economy to suit what we require most.

It's at best disingenuous and at worst half-witted to paint it as some kind of slogan for England shirt wearing racists.

You're right of course. However every single England shirt wearing racist uses the term proudly and incorrectly within the context of Brexit. So it's no surprise it's been painted in that manner.

 

[StephenH]

You're right of course. However every single England shirt wearing racist uses the term proudly and incorrectly within the context of Brexit. So it's no surprise it's been painted in that manner.

What’s any of this to do with England football?

 

[scaramanga]

Because they want the EU, as a collective, to be better in than out. As every remoaner said would happen. They're not gonna tear down an entire 50 year project because Little Britain wants out.

So if you want to leave, sure, leave, but don't expect the same benefits outside the club than when you was in the club.

Why are we still discussing this perspective? It was obvious 4 years ago, it's the same today. I hate the Gym analogy but it works, if you left your gym at £50 per month, they don't let you continue to come in and use the Bench press for free now do they? They'll charge you £20 for a day pass if you want access that's different to before. You cant sit there and complain "i only want to pay a fiver, i don't see the problem you're still getting £5 a month and i still get what i want".

As someone who strikes me as fairly capitalist in their views, even you can see the logic in this surely? You might not like it, but it's exactly what you would do in the same situation.

If the EU has to artificially make being out worse than being in (by refusing deals to those who were members that are offered to those who never were) then the EU has no actual value and everyone would be better off out.

If being out is genuinely worse than being in, then the EU is needlessly causing itself pain by punishing us without reason.

 

[scaramanga]

You're right of course. However every single England shirt wearing racist uses the term proudly and incorrectly within the context of Brexit. So it's no surprise it's been painted in that manner.

Sounds like a lazy excuse for not thinking to me (not you personally, those who artificially paint the topic of sovereignty that way).

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Sovereignty is the ability to set our own rules to suit what we need as a country. We make our own internal rules, we trade with whomever, however we like, we shape our economy to suit what we require most.

It's at best disingenuous and at worst half-witted to paint it as some kind of slogan for England shirt wearing racists.

Said so much better then I, but you have summed up how I and all others I know who voted leave felt.

I imagine the will be some form of compromise and I understand that to move forward that might be for the best.

But out of this whole situation what I will take away from it is how the side that did not get what they wanted were just able to taint the other side as racists. It has left a mark of distrust among me and the people I know. I will be voting for a centre left labour party to form the next government but I do worry if the urban liberals keep labelling anyone who does not think what they think, as racist or stupid then it could pave the way for a Trump type figure in this country.

Do not know anyone who voted out who would even bother waving a flag on st georges day. A few have them on the car when England play.

 

[SpurMeUp]

The sovereignty thing is a misnomer. For example, under WTO trade rules, the WTO decides what our trade terms are. That is not “sovereign”. Any international court wouldn’t be sovereign either.

No one felt ‘less sovereign’ walking down the street pre-vote; and none are skipping along ‘sovereign’ now! Especially because the UK has always controlled most UK laws. Laws on worker’s rights, phone roaming, international pollution hardly make the UK less British! Europe has the deepest, most distinct cultures on the planet.

Sovereignty is an abstract concept. You can’t touch it, and I highly doubt come 2021 anyone will feel any different. They might be poorer though.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[scaramanga]

The sovereignty thing is a misnomer. For example, under WTO trade rules, the WTO decides what our trade terms are. That is not “sovereign”. Any international court wouldn’t be sovereign either.

No one felt ‘less sovereign’ walking down the street pre-vote; and none are skipping along ‘sovereign’ now! Especially because the UK has always controlled most UK laws. Laws on worker’s rights, phone roaming, international pollution hardly make the UK less British! Europe has the deepest, most distinct cultures on the planet.

Sovereignty is an abstract concept. You can’t touch it, and I highly doubt being come 2021 anyone will feel any different. They might feel poorer though.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

We don't have to use WTO rules, we can create whatever agreements we like.

Why does one have to touch a thing for it to have worth? I can't touch the vast majority of my assets, doesn't mean they're not worth having.

 

[Rorschach]

If the EU has to artificially make being out worse than being in (by refusing deals to those who were members that are offered to those who never were) then the EU has no actual value and everyone would be better off out.

If being out is genuinely worse than being in, then the EU is needlessly causing itself pain by punishing us without reason.

That's quite a contortion. Out is worse, that's why everyone wants in. Giving up a sliver of sovereignty for a large slice of prosperity is the deal all EU countries make, to one degree or another. The UK had the most sovereign leaning deal of all EU countries with plenty of opt-outs and privileges other countries did not have.
The deal now on offer is not an exact replica of the Canada deal, it is Canada-like. The Canada deal has no fin services, tariffs on meat, poultry, etc. anyway. Ergo the whole cherry-picking, have your cake and eat it debate.
The bottom line is that the UK had a sweet deal and will never get as good again, even if they rejoin the EU.

 

[scaramanga]

That's quite a contortion. Out is worse, that's why everyone wants in. Giving up a sliver of sovereignty for a large slice of prosperity is the deal all EU countries make, to one degree or another. The UK had the most sovereign leaning deal of all EU countries with plenty of opt-outs and privileges other countries did not have.
The deal now on offer is not an exact replica of the Canada deal, it is Canada-like. The Canada deal has no fin services, tariffs on meat, poultry, etc. anyway. Ergo the whole cherry-picking, have your cake and eat it debate.
The bottom line is that the UK had a sweet deal and will never get as good again, even if they rejoin the EU.

I don't remember which EU leader it was (possibly Merkel) stated around a couple of months ago that we couldn't have a Canada deal because of our close relationship.

The EU fear is that we will benefit from not being in the EU. The logical extension of which, is that all members would benefit from not being in the EU and they should carry on just as a free trade zone.

Unless of course, the EU doesn't fear that and is just punishing us (and their own members too) out of spite.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I don't remember which EU leader it was (possibly Merkel) stated around a couple of months ago that we couldn't have a Canada deal because of our close relationship.

The EU fear is that we will benefit from not being in the EU. The logical extension of which, is that all members would benefit from not being in the EU and they should carry on just as a free trade zone.

Unless of course, the EU doesn't fear that and is just punishing us (and their own members too) out of spite.

The EU is a customs union and free trade area. It can only work if you have some rules to keep a modicum of consistency across nations, so that trade is fair.

For example, if we didn’t have controls on cancer causing toxins we’d be able to produce goods cheaper and we’d be able to undercut other nations, and it would be unfair to have complete free access to the EUs market. How would you suggest you have open free trade without some basic alignments?

But the EU does not align member nations half as much as you make out. For example, you reference the minimum wage, but the EU does not legislate any minimum wage. Austria, Cyprus Sweden, Italy among others don’t have a minimum wage at all!

So what we benefit from is being able to trade freely with a continent. There are some rules but so few you couldn’t name any you have issue with apart from those banning cancer and birth defect related toxins from manufacturing; and the minimum wage which was actually incorrect as it is set solely in the UK!

This highlights one how complex Brexit is, and two how ill-informed everyone is, even the smartest have been figuring this out as we go. No wonder people were sold this positive national drive of independence - because to this day, few can deconstruct and understand that the EU is predominantly about free trade.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Rorschach]

I don't remember which EU leader it was (possibly Merkel) stated around a couple of months ago that we couldn't have a Canada deal because of our close relationship.

The EU fear is that we will benefit from not being in the EU. The logical extension of which, is that all members would benefit from not being in the EU and they should carry on just as a free trade zone.

Unless of course, the EU doesn't fear that and is just punishing us (and their own members too) out of spite.

The exact Canada deal was not on offer because of geography, and nor did the UK want it. Not the right cherries. The other steps in the famous chart were on offer but red lines etc.

Your logic, which is a little twisted, is that the EU are especially playing hardball with the UK because they fear that they will too well outside of the EU and everyone might be tempted to leave and join the libertarian revolution. Er no they won't. The benefits of membership are too good to give up.

It is not spite that is motivating the EU negotiations - it is preserving the best interests of its members. That is projection on your part.

 

[scaramanga]

The EU is a customs union and free trade area. It can only work if you have some rules to keep a modicum of consistency across nations, so that trade is fair.

For example, if we didn’t have controls on cancer causing toxins we’d be able to produce goods cheaper and we’d be able to undercut other nations, and it would be unfair to have complete free access to the EUs market. How would you suggest you have open free trade without some basic alignments?

But the EU does not align member nations half as much as you make out. For example, you reference the minimum wage, but the EU does not legislate any minimum wage. Austria, Cyprus Sweden, Italy among others don’t have a minimum wage at all!

So what we benefit from is being able to trade freely with a continent. There are some rules but so few you couldn’t name any you have issue with apart from those banning cancer causing toxins from manufacturing and those causing birth defect toxins; and the minimum wage which was actually incorrect as it is set solely in the UK!

This just highlights how complex Brexit is, and how ill informed everyone has been. No wonder people were sold this positive national drive of independence - because to this day, few can deconstruct and understand that the EU is predominantly about free trade.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

So if we produced goods using cancer causing toxins, they wouldn't sell because the people in the EU don't want them, right?

 

[scaramanga]

The exact Canada deal was not on offer because of geography, and nor did the UK want it. Not the right cherries. The other steps in the famous chart were on offer but red lines etc.

Your logic, which is a little twisted, is that the EU are especially playing hardball with the UK because they fear that they will too well outside of the EU and everyone might be tempted to leave and join the libertarian revolution. Er no they won't. The benefits of membership are too good to give up.

It is not spite that is motivating the EU negotiations - it is preserving the best interests of its members. That is projection on your part.

If we're not better off out, then everyone (including the EU) benefits from a free trade agreement.

So what's the EU reasoning for.hurting it's own members by restricting that agreement?

 

[SpurMeUp]

So if we produced goods using cancer causing toxins, they wouldn't sell because the people in the EU don't want them, right?

They wouldn’t sell at all because they wouldn’t be allowed by the EU.

But your free market notion is also flawed. How would a consumer know - without government guidance - whether a manufacturing process causes a higher incidence of cancer among staff of one factory that uses a particular chemical?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[AuroRaman]

Sounds like a lazy excuse for not thinking to me (not you personally, those who artificially paint the topic of sovereignty that way).

Perhaps. We are certainly in a time where labelling is at its most prevalent without digging deeper.

Also to be clear, I don’t think everyone that voted for Brexit is an England shirt wearing racist. I was just responding to the example.

 

[scaramanga]

They wouldn’t sell at all because they wouldn’t be allowed by the EU.

But your free market notion is also flawed. How would a consumer know - without government guidance - whether a manufacturing process causes a higher incidence of cancer among staff of one factory that uses a particular chemical?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Product labelling - a system that's already in place and working well.

But that doesn't matter because the people of the EU don't want those products, right?