Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[StephenH]

Does anyone know how much this brickshow has cost us so far?

12 Billion was mentioned on Sky.

It's like an episode of Only Fools and Horses but without the humour.

 

[scaramanga]

Might surprise you but I also agree in principle, think it just depends whether the tariffs would be proportional and fair.

Which brings us neatly to the third sticking point, the arbiter of any disputes will (for all intents and purposes) be the EU.

 

[AuroRaman]

12 Billion was mentioned on Sky.

It's like an episode of Only Fools and Horses but without the humour.

Let’s fund our NHS with that instead...

We are Del Boy, the bar hatch is our oven ready deal and the EU is the attractive lady across the way.

 

[Diamond Lights]

That's not how they've created trade agreements with those they don't want to punish and it's not how trade agreements generally work either.

Don't get where this constant rhetoric has come from that we're being "punished", just nonsensical. We've chosen these supposed sunny uplands, we want access to the EU Single Market, how on earth did we ever think we could access it on our terms?

We want access to the markets but without abiding by rules such as Norway or Switzerland. We're not being "punished", we're facing the reality that they don't actually need us more than we need them.

 

[Baleforce]

12 Billion was mentioned on Sky.

It's like an episode of Only Fools and Horses but without the humour.

or you could say, an episode of Only Fools and Horses, without the Horses

 

[scaramanga]

Don't get where this constant rhetoric has come from that we're being "punished", just nonsensical. We've chosen these supposed sunny uplands, we want access to the EU Single Market, how on earth did we ever think we could access it on our terms?

We want access to the markets but without abiding by rules such as Norway or Switzerland. We're not being "punished", we're facing the reality that they don't actually need us more than we need them.

The EU are refusing to offer us the same terms they've offered other countries with whom they've signed trade agreements. It's clear that the EU has to make independence worse than membership - this appears to be their mechanism for doing so.

 

[StephenH]

Don't get where this constant rhetoric has come from that we're being "punished", just nonsensical.

Has the Farage about it.
Boris and his gang are playing 'parts' of the UK population like a fiddle just as Trump did with the 'simple folk' in the DSA.

 

[StephenH]

or you could say, an episode of Only Fool and Horses, without the Horses

ba-dum-bum-CHING!

 

[AuroRaman]

The EU are refusing to offer us the same terms they've offered other countries with whom they've signed trade agreements. It's clear that the EU has to make independence worse than membership - this appears to be their mechanism for doing so.

If this is the case, they’re negotiating just as you’d expect them to, no?

 

[scaramanga]

If this is the case, they’re negotiating just as you’d expect them to, no?

Yes, as I don't believe the EU is a force for good.

But it does make the logic of believing the EU is a force for good whilst simultaneously believing that anyone leaving needs to be neutered to make it look worse than staying difficult to reconcile.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Which brings us neatly to the third sticking point, the arbiter of any disputes will (for all intents and purposes) be the EU.

Yes that would be a huge issue. The fact that we are abolishing tax free shopping for tourists so as not to treat the EU differently to the rest of the world and follow the rules the WTO set shows we are a modern outwardly looking trade nation.

 

[SpurMeUp]

The EU are refusing to offer us the same terms they've offered other countries with whom they've signed trade agreements. It's clear that the EU has to make independence worse than membership - this appears to be their mechanism for doing so.

Everyone knew this, you didn't?

Furthermore, the UK-EU trade arrangement is not the same as other countries. This is just crying from Leave-moaners. Canada, thousands of miles away, doesn't have completely free trade of goods, and doesn't have any free trade of services.

 

[SpurMeUp]

good listen on the FT Politics (Payne's Politics) podcast.

So basically, UK wants access to EU single market. EU said sure, we need to have regulatory alignment, UK said no. And i get that, as someone who's a REMOANER (shakes head) I can actually understand why the UK would say no to that, and the EU ask is too much.

Now falls to secondary element, where EU have said fine, then if you do diverge, we'll add tariffs as and when that happens to continue your access to our market. To me, that's a sensible solution all round, although am sure sensibility is in short supply when it comes to this topic and especially from Boris and co.

I think Boris would take it. He just has to push for every concession he can get. He also has to play politics to keep the right of the party happy. So he can't be seen to accept anything easily. He might get some more concessions too. Is it a brick show? Of course, but that was to be expected.

Easiest deal ever etc. It is those who promised miracles that need to be held to account.

 

[scaramanga]

Everyone knew this, you didn't?

Furthermore, the UK-EU trade arrangement is not the same as other countries. This is just crying from Leave-moaners. Canada, thousands of miles away, doesn't have completely free trade of goods, and doesn't have any free trade of services.

Of course it was clear from the start.

That's the point I made a few posts above;

Either it's better in the EU or it's not. If the EU needs to artificially construct trade agreements to hamper those who might compete with them, then clearly being outside is better.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Of course it was clear from the start.

That's the point I made a few posts above;

Either it's better in the EU or it's not. If the EU needs to artificially construct trade agreements to hamper those who might compete with them, then clearly being outside is better.

Your logic is that because the EU puts it's own first, we should leave? Sorry, I don't get it.

 

[scaramanga]

Your logic is that because the EU puts it's own first, we should leave? Sorry, I don't get it.

My logic is that if the EU has to offer worse deals to anyone they're concerned about competing with, then being in the EU is not the benefit they'd lead us to believe it is.

If industries need propping up in that way then they're already broken.

 

[SpurMeUp]

My logic is that if the EU has to offer worse deals to anyone they're concerned about competing with, then being in the EU is not the benefit they'd lead us to believe it is.

If industries need propping up in that way then they're already broken.

I'm trying to understand your point, but it doesn't seem grounded in the reality of world trade. All large markets have trade controls and tariffs to look after their own. The Eu is a bastion of free trade - the largest free market on the planet. It also has many free trade agreements with other nations. In short, it is far closer than your utopia than say the US. We don't know exactly what concessions we'll make to keep free trade with the EU, but it won't be as favourable as being a member. How could the EU give all the benifits to a 3rd nation? We won't have input and control into global regulations but we'll follow them one way or another, this was all obvious from the start.

 

[scaramanga]

I'm trying to understand your point, but it doesn't seem grounded in the reality of world trade. All large markets have trade controls and tariffs to look after their own. The Eu is a bastion of free trade - the largest free market on the planet. It also has many free trade agreements with other nations. In short, it is far closer than your utopia than say the US. We don't know exactly what concessions we'll make to keep free trade with the EU, but it won't be as favourable as being a member. How could the EU give all the benifits to a 3rd nation? We won't have input and control into global regulations but we'll follow them one way or another, this was all obvious from the start.

I neither want nor expect them to give us all the concessions they give to members. I merely want them to trade with us as they would any other nation.

The EU has (in comments made by it's own representatives and individual leader) made it clear that they wish to make our offering worse than they would give to others.

Therefore, either being outside the EU is worse than being inside - in which case they can offer us the same as anyone else would get, or it's better and they have to hamper our chances with a worse deal.

 

[Diamond Lights]

The EU are refusing to offer us the same terms they've offered other countries with whom they've signed trade agreements. It's clear that the EU has to make independence worse than membership - this appears to be their mechanism for doing so.

They have no need to offer us any decent deal, it'll be the best deal for them, it's their market. I don't get why there was an expectation they'd offer us the same deal as anyone else when it's not the same circumstance, we're the first country to leave the Bloc. It was said by REMOANERS

 

[Rorschach]

12 Billion was mentioned on Sky.

It's like an episode of Only Fools and Horses but without the humour.

£130 billion in lost growth is another figure I have seen.