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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

She's just saying the same stuff again!

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galeforce said:
At this point how fudging petty is it to distinguish between party leader and leader of an aligned group of elected MP’s, it’s childish and completely what you’d expect from him, an utter clam.
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There are so many things going on with politics that are petty at the moment. Why would we be surprised about this?

Tbf Chuka has stabbed Corbyn in the back after being voted into Parliament on a Labour ticket. Not surprised Corbyn walked out with Chuka now bigging himself up as a "leader". This from a man unable to complete his leadership challenge.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Thing is the backstop is the only sure legally binding thing about the deal! The thing you have concerns about is the only thing sure to happen! If you put that aside, you're left with nothing.
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As I said, I'm trying to do something that comparatively few others are doing in this situation - compromise a little. I don't like the backstop. I also don't like the prospect of the referendum result being overturned. In the situation we're in, choosing between them is a dilemma I'd wager a fair few are facing right now.


SpurMeUp said:
Another Scottish referendum would not be on the table at all without Brexit. With it, of course Scotland would claim the right to a new vote. They were in favour of remaining, and they would have clear and strong momentum to seek independence and to re-join Europe.

The GE is no indication for Brexit. I voted for a party who backed A50, in the understanding something like this would happen. Same in Scotland. You can't use a general election that covers x amount of various issues to endorse Brexit. People do, but it is gross oversimplifaction.

Ireland. May's Brexit causes jeopardy because if you do not have a customs union - where goods can move freely from Ireland to the UK - then you tear up the Good Friday agreement and have to have some form of border. The border provokes various attacks etc. The IRA can use it to seek Irish unification and it re-opens age old wounds.
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You might well be correct in technical terms, but are you seriously suggesting that if brexit gets reversed, the SNP are going to suddenly say 'we're happy now, we'll never mention indyref2 again, promise!'. I'm really not up on the current Scotland situation, but don't the polls still show a majority against independence? Maybe, maybe not, I thought I heard something like that fairly recently, but I could be wrong. But in any case and with all due respect, I honestly don't think you're doing your overall case any favours with this argument. I think I might have said similar to you once before, when you were promoting mobile phone roaming charges as a major factor against brexit, if my memory serves.

On Ireland, the backstop is there to prevent a hard border thereby continuing to promote the GFA, with the intention being (so we're told) that other arrangements will supersede this but to the same overall effect. Do I have it right so far? If so, I'm still not seeing how May's deal jeopardises Irish peace as you previously suggested.


SpurMeUp said:
Yes it is a fudge. Brexit itself is. There is no gleaming Brexit. It is Emperor New Clothes. A con. So whatever the deal on the table, there will be issues. When MPs have to vote, or you have to judge it, there is no brexit deal that leaves the UK in a better position. As you put it Brexit is "a bad set of options". That is the inherent problem.
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I agree there are issues with every scenario - including yours. What are your feelings on the potential consequences of overturning the referendum result? A hardcore of remainers haven't stopped banging on about all this since the result.....and they lost! What do you think the effect might be if the winners have cause to feel aggrieved?
 
Parklaner81 said:
As I said, I'm trying to do something that comparatively few others are doing in this situation - compromise a little. I don't like the backstop. I also don't like the prospect of the referendum result being overturned. In the situation we're in, choosing between them is a dilemma I'd wager a fair few are facing right now.

You might well be correct in technical terms, but are you seriously suggesting that if brexit gets reversed, the SNP are going to suddenly say 'we're happy now, we'll never mention indyref2 again, promise!'. I'm really not up on the current Scotland situation, but don't the polls still show a majority against independence? Maybe, maybe not, I thought I heard something like that fairly recently, but I could be wrong. But in any case and with all due respect, I honestly don't think you're doing your overall case any favours with this argument. I think I might have said similar to you once before, when you were promoting mobile phone roaming charges as a major factor against brexit, if my memory serves.

On Ireland, the backstop is there to prevent a hard border thereby continuing to promote the GFA, with the intention being (so we're told) that other arrangements will supersede this but to the same overall effect. Do I have it right so far? If so, I'm still not seeing how May's deal jeopardises Irish peace as you previously suggested.

I agree there are issues with every scenario - including yours. What are your feelings on the potential consequences of overturning the referendum result? A hardcore of remainers haven't stopped banging on about all this since the result.....and they lost! What do you think the effect might be if the winners have cause to feel aggrieved?
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I think a lot of Conservative MPs would compromise if there was just the smallest thing for them to grab on to. Anything positive. But the exit deal just outlines how the transition period will run and how we'll use the EU court to police things. So from March the 29th or later if its extended, we would be subject to the EU passing laws which we have to accept. BUT we have no say in these laws what so ever! AND we only exit this arrangement if we agree a future deal. That compromises our bargaining position, and this future deal could literally be anything. It could include free movement. It could be soft or hard. May's exit deal indicates the intention of no free movement, freer trade on goods (but not services) and it would amount to quite a hard exit. The economy would take a hit - general consensus. But again, this is all up for grabs. So what is May's exit deal? A guarantee that we will be subjects of the EU for an indefinite time period. That is all. As we negotiate a trade agreement with the EU, if both sides don't accept each others terms, we stay a vassal state. What is there to like about this setup? Its not a matter compromise, that would suggest we are getting something. We are not.


Scotland is simple. No Brexit, Scottish independence is off the table for a decade at least. Leave the Eu and it will be firmly front and centre, and who could blame them? They can get independence and join Ireland and the EU. It makes Scottish independence viable and rational when it wasn't previously/currently.


The backstop is the UK being in the EU as a 'subject' nation as outlined. So it addresses the Irish problem short term as we are effectively in the EU and goods flow accross the invisible border as they always have. But May's intention is to leave the EU customs union. No customs union = a border. Thus when a deal is made with the EU on future trade, a border of some description has to be erected in Ireland. There is no getting around that. So doing the Good Friday agreement is broken.


What are the issues with 'my scenario'?

The consequences of a new referendum are people get to vote again with more information. True democracy. How can it be democratic to deny people a vote now there is real information? The die hards who will not weigh up the detail and are wedded to Brexit with an emotional attachment will be angry. But generally these are older people. The young and the future of the UK are far more into cooperating with other European nations. What will happen to these angry people you might ask? Its a phenomenon - as people get older all over the world, they start to dislike immigrants. Even older immigrants themselves start to dislike young immigrants! Pull up the drawbridge. Something about getting older makes people want to isolate from the outside, and retain what they have. Haven't quite figured it out fully, but its factual, based on data from many many countries and bar Sweden it is amazingly consistent. So to answer your question, yes people will be upset, but they need to see the bigger picture - being out the EU damages the UK and gives the UK young a less positive and free future. That is how the young see it, and if you care to deconstruct it, its also the truth.
 
I don't really watch live TV, so I'm probably a bit behind here.

Is this advert designed purely to smugly tell us all how they're spaffing our license fees up the wall?

 
Was May's speech dissing MPs basically thinking ahead to when a long extenion is agreed? Her deal is voted down again (probably by quite a small margin this time), the Eu agree a long extension, and May says well its those dastardly MPs wot done it. At which point she may resign if there are lots of resignations, or threats thereof.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Was May's speech dissing MPs basically thinking ahead to when a long extenion is agreed? Her deal is voted down again (probably by quite a small margin this time), the Eu agree a long extension, and May says well its those dastardly MPs wot done it. At which point she may resign if there are lots of resignations, or threats thereof.
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It's bizarre. It's Trump like in rewriting history.
To claim MPs have not said what they do want (just what they don't) whilst constantly dismissing indicative votes shows an astounding level of arrogance
 
scaramanga said:
I don't really watch live TV, so I'm probably a bit behind here.

Is this advert designed purely to smugly tell us all how they're spaffing our license fees up the wall?

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Yes, yes it is.

Im looking into how to not pay the License fee, I heartily object to the idea that if I dont I go to prison. Every other option is by choice, not by law.

Plus the BBC is basically brick these days and has been for a long time.

It has the odd good show (which invariably end up on Amazon/Netflix anyway) but by and large is as tabloid as ITV and Sky.
 
monkeybarry said:
Three years.....summed up without even the need for a comma.
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I agree with @Parklaner81, I do believe she has genuinely done the best she can.

I think she has set parameters of what Brexit means and got a deal she feels best satisfies them and genuinely believes its the best option of a bad bunch (especially as she isnt a leaver anyway).

I also think her clear frustration last night was genuine, she has tried to do the right thing (as she see's) and been blocked by MPs all more interested in their interests than what she is trying to achieve.

All of that is very real, IMO.

That said, it doesnt make her right does it? :D

Its been a brick show from the beginning, and I do think she is right in apportioning the blame out to the whole house, they have all played their part.

Problem is, she shouldnt have run it as a closed shop to now, so bloody minded and stubborn, should she? Same as she really shouldnt be trying to bully the house now with the deadlines and options she imposes. As Parklaner says, theres every chance the deal isnt actually that unpalateable but she has done such a fine job of getting everyones backs up they wont vote her way regardless...

Its been spectacularly bad leadership.
 
Personally I don’t understand why parliament has been involved at all. Surely the point of having a referendum is that you bypass parliament and go straight to the populace. IMO post-referendum they should have done more consultation with the populace to inform what the Brexit deal should look like, negotiate the deal (with a pro-Brexit PM), then do a second referendum (alternative vote) with the negotiated deal, no deal and remain as the three options (given that the populace would now have much more detailed information to make a final decision on).

Surely it was always going to be chaos having parliament get to vote or have lots of input on a Brexit deal that they didn’t want in the first place?

(Of course better not to have had a referendum in the first place IMO).

(Also for what it’s worth I voted remain).
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Yes, yes it is.

Im looking into how to not pay the License fee, I heartily object to the idea that if I dont I go to prison. Every other option is by choice, not by law.

Plus the BBC is basically brick these days and has been for a long time.

It has the odd good show (which invariably end up on Amazon/Netflix anyway) but by and large is as tabloid as ITV and Sky.
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Don't watch live TV and don't use the Iplayer- follow this and you don't need a license. Includes football but if you are streaming that rather than via sky you are already in dodgy territory.
 
r-u-s-x said:
Don't watch live TV and don't use the Iplayer- follow this and you don't need a license. Includes football but if you are streaming that rather than via sky you are already in dodgy territory.
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Ive got a Virgin subscription, so would get BBC through that anyway wouldnt I? I think that kills the option of saying no, unless I can get Virgin to de-tune it...

Otherwise I dont watch live TV and the iplayer requires sign in these days so easily avoided.
 
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