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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

StephenH said:
That's rich! 'self-indulgent liberal luvvies".
What about those like yourself who would cheerfully inflict job losses and financial hardships on others just to satisfy their own distorted and disordered self-absorbed doctrine?
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That is the problem with your side your never happy and always moan when you don't get what you want. Should have been someone who voted leave who took us out.

May has tried her best and considering the task she is up against she did as well as can be expected.

The have been people in positions of power in this country doing everything they can to stop the process. Starting with Cameron who I personally could not stand after the Lisbon treaty which is why brexit happened.

The are a smattering of decent posters on this website but so many on here whose views on democracy I find so abhorrent that I am not on here as much now.

We will not have brexit. May will be replaced with some Blair/Cameron prick and everyone will think it is over.

Put I truly believe the more you push people down the worse it will get further down the line.

Remoaners kept saying their views should be heard. But it is this snowflake attitude that is the problem. Because after project fear mark 2, when you have a second referendum and have done everything to overturn the result of the first would you be prepared to listen to the other side to make concessions.

It is this attitude of superiority of telling people to do as I say not as I do. That leaves people so disaffected and stops them listening. It is how Trump got into power.

You don't like the way people think or vote, so you go after newspapers or blogs. We have the BBC which is this countries answer to fox news but with a different political slant.

Things will come to a head somewhere down the line and by telling 17.5 million people to go fcuk themselves the powers that be open themselves up to losing the trust of so many when things don't go there own way.

People complain we have had no leadership but then slag off Johnson, well he is not completely my cup of tea(my sister actually worked with him in the mayor's office not that I expect anyone to believe me) the biggest problem, fuelled by social media is trying to keep everyone happy.

I won't be on here so much because without crossing the lines of acceptable behaviour some of the posts I have read on here have been so offensive that if they had come from leavers they would have been reported. The are a lot on here who if I knew your faces I would cross the street to avoid as I find your views so disgusting.
 
Jon said:
It’s clearly made up.

But I don’t care.

I just love the amount of tinkle getting boiled on both sides. Great comedy. :D
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Ok clearly made up....I am not sure, but I keep hearing about fake news. Really don't know what to say other then to suggest you get some comedy dvd's on to watch some proper humour.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
Ok clearly made up....I am not sure, but I keep hearing about fake news. Really don't know what to say other then to suggest you get some comedy dvd's on to watch some proper humour.
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As if anyone could write anything as humourously shambolic as Brexit has been so far!
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
May has tried her best and considering the task she is up against she did as well as can be expected.
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Agree. I don't rate May but I do sympathise with her. I think she has honestly and genuinely tried her best to deliver on the result of the referendum as she saw it, a claim that simply cannot be made for a large number of her fellow MP's. As you suggest, given the constant attempts to undermine and frustrate the referendum result every step of the way I struggle to envisage anybody else having done much better, and this is a scenario I very much feared would play out back at the beginning in June 2016.
 
Parklaner81 said:
Agree. I don't rate May but I do sympathise with her. I think she has honestly and genuinely tried her best to deliver on the result of the referendum as she saw it, a claim that simply cannot be made for a large number of her fellow MP's. As you suggest, given the constant attempts to undermine and frustrate the referendum result every step of the way I struggle to envisage anybody else having done much better, and this is a scenario I very much feared would play out back at the beginning in June 2016.
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I agree she tried to deliver, and I was a little suprised her deal wasn't welcomed by the ERG and those who want Brexit. But now I understand it...May's deal is not good for the UK. It doesn't address anything, and locks the UK into the EU until a deal is reached (vassal state with no say). The actual Brexit trade deal could quite frankly be anything. The exit deal indicates it would include no free movement, but even that is not completely assured. It could change. The only sure thing about May's exit deal is the UK is locked in with no say until a deal is reached. There seems to be no provision for UK services to trade with the EU, and services make up most of our economy. It puts Irish peace into jepordy, would see Scotland likely try and leave the UK, and it is extremeley hard for any MP to vote for all that. There are no up sides with plenty of downsides.

Do you like May's deal?
 
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“A short extension will be possible conditional on a positive vote in House of Commons”

Tusk's choice of words is telling. He has not ruled out a longer extension. He could actually be working with May behind the scenes, trying to get the UK parliment to back May as the first option. However, if we had a vote of 1. May's deal and if voted down 2. Revoke A50 or Hard Exit, that would be interesting. Alternatively, 2. New Referendum with 3 options: revoke a50, with two sub options: no deal exit or May's deal.
 
SpurMeUp said:
I agree she tried to deliver, and I was a little suprised her deal wasn't welcomed by the ERG and those who want Brexit. But now I understand it...May's deal is not good for the UK. It doesn't address anything, and locks the UK into the EU until a deal is reached (vassal state with no say). The actual Brexit trade deal could quite frankly be anything. The exit deal indicates it would include no free movement, but even that is not completely assured. It could change. The only sure thing about May's exit deal is the UK is locked in with no say until a deal is reached. There seems to be no provision for UK services to trade with the EU, and services make up most of our economy. It puts Irish peace into jepordy, would see Scotland likely try and leave the UK, and it is extremeley hard for any MP to vote for all that. There are no up sides with plenty of downsides.

Do you like May's deal?
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I have concerns over the backstop, which to put it quite bluntly stem largely from the fact that I do not trust the EU's intentions or goodwill to the extent that I would want to be legally bound to them. Leaving that to one side though, and I don't have an entirely fixed opinion, but I think her deal based on the headline points might be the best of a bad bunch of potential outcomes at this stage.

I personally think no deal need not have meant armageddon, but in practice it would probably become a self-fulfilling prophecy fuelled by the hysterical reactions it would no doubt provoke, and as well as that I'll again throw in my concerns over EU goodwill in such a scenario. This makes me cautious regarding this outcome, and pushes me closer to May's deal.

I think the point you raise about Scotland can be entirely discounted. I mean, come on! Brexit is simply a convenient excuse for the SNP and I'm sure you know that every bit as much as I do. If it didn't exist, they'd quickly find something else. How concerned about EU membership were they in 2014? Also consider what the 2017 GE results might say about the Scottish electorate's feelings on the matter - perhaps not quite as clear cut as the referendum numbers suggest. I think the Irish concern is somewhat more valid, but how does May's deal - backstop and all - cause jeopardy? I thought the whole point of the backstop was Irish peace?

I've said this before, but to me May's deal is already a fudge. I too am surprised, given it's potential to please most parties to some degree, that it doesn't have more support but my suspicion is that on one side at least, this is largely down to the pre-existing remain-bias and/or anti-May sentiment of certain MP's.

It won't surprise you to hear that I certainly wouldn't condone any option 'less' than May's deal, so trying to be compromise-minded I'm leaning toward it possibly being the best of a bad set of options.
 
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I'm surprised that no one has tried to put an amendment through to approve the deal but call a general election, I'm guessing because it wouldn't get through. Very few Tories would vote for it and then there's the TIG but really it's the best solution approve the deal, have an election then whoever wins will hopefully have a bit of a mandate to get somewhere though it will likely be a hung parliament again. The WA leaves pretty much all options open apart from a harder brexit.
 
Parklaner81 said:
I have concerns over the backstop, which to put it quite bluntly stem largely from the fact that I do not trust the EU's intentions or goodwill to the extent that I would want to be legally bound to them. Leaving that to one side though, and I don't have an entirely fixed opinion, but I think her deal based on the headline points might be the best of a bad bunch of potential outcomes at this stage.
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Thing is the backstop is the only sure legally binding thing about the deal! The thing you have concerns about is the only thing sure to happen! If you put that aside, you're left with nothing.

Parklaner81 said:
I personally think no deal need not have meant armageddon, but in practice it would probably become a self-fulfilling prophecy fuelled by the hysterical reactions it would no doubt provoke, and as well as that I'll again throw in my concerns over EU goodwill in such a scenario. This makes me cautious regarding this outcome, and pushes me closer to May's deal.
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Fair enough. I agree, I think we'd deal with the fall out - but there is lot of small detail with food, drugs and a million other things which will cause all sorts of disruption short term. Longer term its undoubtly aweful for the UK. Car firms would have 10% tariffs on exports to the EU. Often that is more than the profit margin on a car. These companies and others are relying on the government to not deliver no deal. If we did get no deal such companies would be off as soon as they could. We don't want that do we?

Parklaner81 said:
I think the point you raise about Scotland should be entirely discounted. I mean, come on! Brexit is simply a convenient excuse for the SNP and I'm sure you know that every bit as much as I do. If it didn't exist, they'd quickly find something else. How concerned about EU membership were they in 2014? Also consider what the 2017 GE results might say about the Scottish electorate's feelings on the matter - perhaps not quite as clear cut as the referendum numbers suggest. I think the Irish concern is somewhat more valid, but how does May's deal - backstop and all - cause jeopardy? I thought the whole point of the backstop was Irish peace?
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Another Scottish referendum would not be on the table at all without Brexit. With it, of course Scotland would claim the right to a new vote. They were in favour of remaining, and they would have clear and strong momentum to seek independence and to re-join Europe.

The GE is no indication for Brexit. I voted for a party who backed A50, in the understanding something like this would happen. Same in Scotland. You can't use a general election that covers x amount of various issues to endorse Brexit. People do, but it is gross oversimplifaction.

Ireland. May's Brexit causes jeopardy because if you do not have a customs union - where goods can move freely from Ireland to the UK - then you tear up the Good Friday agreement and have to have some form of border. The border provokes various attacks etc. The IRA can use it to seek Irish unification and it re-opens age old wounds.

Parklaner81 said:
I've said this before, but to me May's deal is already a fudge. I too am surprised given it's potential to please most parties to some degree that it doesn't have more support, but my suspicion is that, on one side at least, this is largely down to the pre-existing remain-bias and/or anti-May sentiment of certain MP's.

It won't surprise you to hear that I certainly wouldn't condone any option 'less' than May's deal, so trying to be compromise-minded I'm leaning toward it possibly being the best of a bad set of options.
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Yes it is a fudge. Brexit itself is. There is no gleaming Brexit. It is Emperor New Clothes. A con. So whatever the deal on the table, there will be issues. When MPs have to vote, or you have to judge it, there is no brexit deal that leaves the UK in a better position. As you put it Brexit is "a bad set of options". That is the inherent problem.
 
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P.D. said:
Wow apparently Corbyn has stormed out of a meeting because Chuka was there and doesn't believe him to be a party leader, if we can't get agreement on who attends a meeting I can't see much progress anytime soon.
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I like Chuka. But he isn't a party leader, so shouldn't be there.
Storming out however is BS.

Also - is that credible?
 
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