Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[SpurMeUp]

I'm not really a fan of moves towards fiscal union, taxes should be set by individual countries and I think shared debt is a slippery slope that will lead to more deals like this as well as a lot of bitterness between some countries.

On Ireland in some ways people there have lost out, Varadkar lost his majority recently even though people praised his handling of Brexit and coronavirus because he pandered too hard to some of the US companies which led to huge pressures on infrastructure and a massive spike in house prices driving locals away from Dublin etc.

They could always do what the UK and I believe France are doing and put in a digital services tax but I think it doesn't capture Apple.



Basing 70% of it on population and unemployment, some of the EU countries (mainly Italy and Spain) have been in long term decline with weak economies and high levels of unemployment for a long time before this virus came along.

So when you flagged up the EU borrowing money and lending it to the EU as bad thing - something that is happening the world over at the moment - there wasn't actually anything wrong with it that you could identify. The only issue it transpires was your fears of something that has not occurred. That this lending money will somehow lead to fiscal union. But you have not outlined how. A baseless fear therefore?

My previous point regarding Ireland and Apple, was highlighting how headlines on EU actions are often misrepresentation. People post things which seem to show the EU has stopped Ireland getting taxes back off Apple. But look at the detail and you can see the EU is trying to make Apple pay up.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

What are you on about? Of course MI5 can "self task". They don't need permission to get on with background work. But the notion that MI5 can ignore the government or, as in this case, potentially work against the democratically elected government of the day is a nonsense. If it were to investigate something the government does not want it to, it would have gone rogue. Some tweet is not going to change that reality. A government that hides a report for a year is not going to want to pursue further detail on Russian involvement, involvement that is potentially linked to this government. If you can't see that I am surprised.

Do you think that they informed Wilson, when he was being investigated?

 

[Rorschach]

Basing 70% of it on population and unemployment, some of the EU countries (mainly Italy and Spain) have been in long term decline with weak economies and high levels of unemployment for a long time before this virus came along.

They need more help. A benefit of being in the club.

 

[scaramanga]

They need more help. A benefit of being in the club.

Leaving the fiscally responsible to pay off the debt on their behalf. Ergo, being a member of the EU as a nation with a functioning economy is not fiscally responsible.

 

[Rorschach]

Leaving the fiscally responsible to pay off the debt on their behalf. Ergo, being a member of the EU as a nation with a functioning economy is not fiscally responsible.

Sorry for triggering you so early in the morning. Well, you can always leave... and let's see how fiscally responsible that turns out to be.

 

[scaramanga]

Sorry for triggering you so early in the morning. Well, you can always leave... and let's see how fiscally responsible that turns out to be.

I was thinking about it anyway. I'm preparing for a meeting next week with some industry groups who will be lobbying for the removal of restrictive EU regulations within REACH and other such needless regimes.

Assuming that goes well I'll be looking at when I can get to Dubai and the US to start getting back into those markets.

 

[Rorschach]

I was thinking about it anyway. I'm preparing for a meeting next week with some industry groups who will be lobbying for the removal of restrictive EU regulations within REACH and other such needless regimes.

Assuming that goes well I'll be looking at when I can get to Dubai and the US to start getting back into those markets.

Sincerely, the best of luck with that.

 

[P.D.]

They need more help. A benefit of being in the club.

But that's a different question separate from coronavirus. If they are lending money based on economic harm due to covid then it should be based on how covid has affected the country now how the last 10 - 20 years has panned out. Otherwise it's just a general bail out and I think very unfair on Greece who had a lot of conditions imposed on them for their bailout which the other countries don't have.

 

[P.D.]

What are you on about? Of course MI5 can "self task". They don't need permission to get on with background work. But the notion that MI5 can ignore the government or, as in this case, potentially work against the democratically elected government of the day is a nonsense. If it were to investigate something the government does not want it to, it would have gone rogue. Some tweet is not going to change that reality. A government that hides a report for a year is not going to want to pursue further detail on Russian involvement, involvement that is potentially linked to this government. If you can't see that I am surprised.

I disagree, MI5 will of course take directions from government in some areas but I'd also be fairly sure they can and do act independently to investigate things they feel are harming the UK.

So when you flagged up the EU borrowing money and lending it to the EU as bad thing - something that is happening the world over at the moment - there wasn't actually anything wrong with it that you could identify. The only issue it transpires was your fears of something that has not occurred. That this lending money will somehow lead to fiscal union. But you have not outlined how. A baseless fear therefore?

My previous point regarding Ireland and Apple, was highlighting how headlines on EU actions are often misrepresentation. People post things which seem to show the EU has stopped Ireland getting taxes back off Apple. But look at the detail and you can see the EU is trying to make Apple pay up.

It's not happening the world over though is it? Countries are borrowing money themselves and have to pay it back - I'm not aware of any trade agreements sharing borrowing together and then putting centralised taxation plans in place either. It's not a baseless fear if agreement for a shared tax has already been agreed.

 

[JerusalemMan]

https://www.thejc.com/comment/opini...now-they-face-the-legal-consequences-1.501782

An interesting update following yesterday's news. I am curious to see how his proposed actions shape up against his accusers.

 

[Rorschach]

But that's a different question separate from coronavirus. If they are lending money based on economic harm due to covid then it should be based on how covid has affected the country now how the last 10 - 20 years has panned out. Otherwise it's just a general bail out and I think very unfair on Greece who had a lot of conditions imposed on them for their bailout which the other countries don't have.

It is part of the same budget and that is what they agreed on. So I assume everyone is happy more or less.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I disagree, MI5 will of course take directions from government in some areas but I'd also be fairly sure they can and do act independently to investigate things they feel are harming the UK.



It's not happening the world over though is it? Countries are borrowing money themselves and have to pay it back - I'm not aware of any trade agreements sharing borrowing together and then putting centralised taxation plans in place either. It's not a baseless fear if agreement for a shared tax has already been agreed.

No point continuing re. security services. It’s obvious they work for the government of the day, and that government will determine the focus and direction of their work. For example, whether to focus a year ago on uncovering Russian intervention in our democracy or not.

Governments the world over are borrowing and investing in economies. Your fears of fiscal union in the EU are just that - fears. European nations have separate tax systems and are some of the most distinct nations - culturally - in the world. There is no United States of Europe on the cards. Doesn’t stop people fearing it. Which is odd, because the reality of distinct and separate collaborating nations is so apparent.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[scaramanga]

https://www.thejc.com/comment/opini...now-they-face-the-legal-consequences-1.501782

An interesting update following yesterday's news. I am curious to see how his proposed actions shape up against his accusers.

Very interesting.

I hope that more is made of the need to either hold "alternative news" publishers to a higher standard or that we simply stop considering them to be a trustworthy news source. This is precisely why I continually urge caution when relying on Twitter as a source of news as so many seem to do.

 

[DTA]

Ok so the russia report!

I dont get it, I really don't. Arnt you brexiteers supposed to be super patriots?

I'm second generation, but I love this country. There is nowhere I would rather live... and I have many options.

I'm not English but like i said I am British, my grandad fought in ww2 and Suez (where America fu*ked us by the way) and won medals, that is one but by far not the only reason I feel patriotic towards the uk.

So can any self respecting british citizen and anyone who loves this country be ok with the fact that a hostile nation seems to have perverted our democracy and the institutions that are supposed to ward against that haven't investigated that?

Do you guys hate the EU more than you love your country?

I am obviously pro EU... but only because I believe being in it is the best for Britain... otherwise I wouldn't give a s hit.

But even with that if a hostile country potentially swang such an important vote the other way, I promise you I would have a problem with it.

Since when did we become so small time that other nations could fudge with our democracy... that what we do (ashamedly) with other nations.

 

[scaramanga]

Ok so the russia report!

I dont get it, I really don't. Arnt you brexiteers supposed to be super patriots?

I'm second generation, but I love this country. There is nowhere I would rather live... and I have many options.

I'm not English but like i said I am British, my grandad fought in ww2 and Suez (where America fu*ked us by the way) and won medals, that is one but by far not the only reason I feel patriotic towards the uk.

So can any self respecting british citizen and anyone who loves this country be ok with the fact that a hostile nation seems to have perverted our democracy and the institutions that are supposed to ward against that haven't investigated that?

Do you guys hate the EU more than you love your country?

I am obviously pro EU... but only because I believe being in it is the best for Britain... otherwise I wouldn't give a s hit.

But even with that if a hostile country potentially swang such an important vote the other way, I promise you I would have a problem with it.

Since when did we become so small time that other nations could fudge with our democracy... that what we do (ashamedly) with other nations.

1. Patriotism is for halfwits
2. If this country has an electorate that bases their political opinions on Twitter, we have a far bigger problem than Russian interference. We need to work out how to take the vote away from such simpletons
3. According to the report itself, it is impossible to determine whether any interference has any effect whatsoever
4. Our intelligence agencies are not concerned about it. I'll take that over a few politically motivated MPs.

 

[SpurMeUp]

A more affective player in brexit than Russia is Murdoch and the Sun.

Russia probably did bank roll some of the Leave campaign paying for Cambridge Analytica via Bannon or other discrete flows of money. And the Leave campaign was that much more slick. They left Remain in their wake a couple of steps behind.

That said, Murdoch has long disliked the EU because he holds no influence over them. Whereas every UK wannabe prime minister offers to blow him at his convenience.

Without Murdoch would you even know of Nigel Farrage? Certainly the extra votes the Sun delivered to Leave were vital.

So yes maybe Russia played its part helping to finance Brexit, we will probably never know for sure as the powers that be don’t want to look too hard. And with networks of offshore accounts the UK can’t easily view the origins of donated money. But speak to security people off record and they know that cash was incoming from Russia.

But, a greater impact than Russia has to be Murdoch and the Sun. Hard to quantify how many votes decades of EU slurs are worth, but no doubt it was instrumental to changing the perception of the EU and delivering a third of the population to vote Leave.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[DTA]

1. Patriotism is for halfwits
2. If this country has an electorate that bases their political opinions on Twitter, we have a far bigger problem than Russian interference. We need to work out how to take the vote away from such simpletons
3. According to the report itself, it is impossible to determine whether any interference has any effect whatsoever
4. Our intelligence agencies are not concerned about it. I'll take that over a few politically motivated MPs.

1. So you don't love this country?
2. Militarily grade propaganda zeroed specifically in on what that individual cares about most... um yeah people are going to be swayed by that.
3. Even if that is true, the fact that there was interference in the first place, should not be stood for? Have we become some 4th rate country where others can fudge with our processes and we do fudge all about it? Seriously thats what has become of great Britain? And you are ok with that? See question 1.
4. If our intelligence services truly arnt concerned about it then we are in bigger trouble than I thought.

 

[DTA]

A more affective player in brexit than Russia is Murdoch and the Sun.

Russia probably did bank roll some of the Leave campaign paying for Cambridge Analytica via Bannon or other discrete flows of money. And the Leave campaign was that much more slick. They left Remain in their wake a couple of steps behind.

That said, Murdoch has long disliked the EU because he holds no influence over them. Whereas every UK wannabe prime minister offers to blow him at his convenience.

Without Murdoch would you even know of Nigel Farrage? Certainly the extra votes the Sun delivered to Leave were vital.

So yes maybe Russia played its part helping to finance Brexit, we will probably never know for sure as the powers that be don’t want to look too hard. And with networks of offshore accounts the UK can’t easily view the origins of donated money. But speak to security people off record and they know that cash was incoming from Russia.

But, a greater impact than Russia has to be Murdoch and the Sun. Hard to quantify how many votes decades of EU slurs are worth, but no doubt it was instrumental to changing the perception of the EU and delivering a third of the population to vote Leave.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Murdoch fudging with our elections isn't new. A Hostile foreign government doing it... well that is.

 

[scaramanga]

1. So you don't love this country?
2. Militarily grade propaganda zeroed specifically in on what that individual cares about most... um yeah people are going to be swayed by that.
3. Even if that is true, the fact that there was interference in the first place, should not be stood for? Have we become some 4th rate country where others can fudge with our processes and we do fudge all about it? Seriously thats what has become of great Britain? And you are ok with that? See question 1.
4. If our intelligence services truly arnt concerned about it then we are in bigger trouble than I thought.

1. Not even slightly. There are some cities I love - London, Barcelona, Paris, New York, etc. Having love for an artificial set of borders (although admittedly ours are somewhat less artificial than most) seems nothing short of ridiculous.
2. Then they shouldn't be allowed to vote. Anyone taking their political opinions from social media is simply not intelligent enough to deserve such a responsibility.
3. It absolutely shouldn't be stood for. But that's the responsibility of a) Social media companies to stop spam and b) People to not form their opinions based on other people's in a bubble that requires no journalistic integrity
4. It's social fudging media. It's nothing of any import whatsoever. It's just space filling for halfwits.

 

[DTA]

1. Not even slightly. There are some cities I love - London, Barcelona, Paris, New York, etc. Having love for an artificial set of borders (although admittedly ours are somewhat less artificial than most) seems nothing short of ridiculous.
2. Then they shouldn't be allowed to vote. Anyone taking their political opinions from social media is simply not intelligent enough to deserve such a responsibility.
3. It absolutely shouldn't be stood for. But that's the responsibility of a) Social media companies to stop spam and b) People to not form their opinions based on other people's in a bubble that requires no journalistic integrity
4. It's social fudging media. It's nothing of any import whatsoever. It's just space filling for halfwits.

1. Its a fair point, and one that i have some sympathy for. But maybe you are rich enough to be an internationalist. But most people don't have that opportunity. However, London is the greatest city in the world, on that we agree.
2. But they do vote. So thats a mute point
3.i would say that it would be the responsibility of governments to force SM companies to do that... otherwise SM companies will take the cheapest option and hide behind free speech.
4. If it is allowing the manipulation of democracy then to say 'its just social media' is not a position that I would hope our security forces to be holding... or any person who has affection for this country.