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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Absolutely, there should be more of a plan, an idea (ideal?) and something to drive toward.

And that being the case, then the "risk" is much more minimal, isnt it? Its a bump in the road, not the destination.

Though I have to be honest, the general thing I take away from most of the press etc about this is people dont want to risk ANY pain at all, ever.




Because they are playing politics and power games, and not putting the UK first. As I said.

Look at what it is they think is the best way.

Vote down no deal in March (with no alternative)
Vote down leaving in March and to have an extension (without the power to actually provide said extension)
Go cap in hand to the EU to ask them to help bail out the mess (no doubt with some cost)
Try and get Mays deal through (it wont)
Push for a GE (50/50 Chance?)
Corbyn wins a minority and tries for his super special deal (its brick)
Doesnt have the juice to push it through the house
We end up back at square one
Oh, maybe we should go to the people now all the gamesmanship has provided fudge all?

Compared to being the opposition that put the people first and put power into their hands.
I wonder what would happen at the next GE after that?

[EDIT - A GE where Labour go in with a 'radical' manifesto pledging to nationalise industry to look after the people etc - having already proven their mettle]
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The people's vote campaign did not want to push for the vote on a PV at this time and instead preferred to focus on extending Article 50, Campbell and others said as much. I don't know why TIG pushed for it (well I do, to have a pop at Labour -- playing politics you might say). But the smarter ones in the PV campaign (like Campbell) felt it wasn't the right time.

IMO, for a PV to work, they need all other options to be dead. Then the numbers in Parliament work in favour. This is why I think Campbell (arch Blairite, hater of Corbyn, Alastair Campbell) said what he did.
 
Voting on anything today???:D

Communication is what is sadly missing (and when you think of it, it has been all along) , lost in the bickering, squabbling, posturing, point scoring pit that is the HofC's.

May's deal, is our only 'negotiated' deal. The EU are done negotiating. Everyone thinks May's deal is a bad deal, why?, because everyone says it is.

She needs to start communicating the detail of it to the common man. Not to prove its good, but so he can weigh it up against the other option of calling off Brexit altogether. That gets trotted out as unpalatable because 'the people have voted' yada yada. But (and maybe I'm stretching it a bit:)) if the common man can have a clear picture of the options, (and not just think 'what a sh.it show' 'theyre all useless' etc) by diverting the attention away from the circus and to something of substance we may just get somewhere.

Even 'no deal' has no constructive attention beyond being the doomsday default option. You'd think some hard Brexit believers would flesh it out a bit, giving scenarios, some timelines and some hoddle like vision that would stir discussion that would (rightly or wrongly) generate some belief that it's painful but viable.

That said...@nayimfromthehalfwayline is bang on when he says that no-one for one moment looks like they're prepared to suffer any pain even if the prospect of the country being in a better place in the future is the reward. Couple that with a tinkle pot team of politicians that would 'guide' us through it, i'd say they're more reasons to swerve it.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Voting on anything today???:D

Communication is what is sadly missing (and when you think of it, it has been all along) , lost in the bickering, squabbling, posturing, point scoring pit that is the HofC's.

May's deal, is our only 'negotiated' deal. The EU are done negotiating. Everyone thinks May's deal is a bad deal, why?, because everyone says it is.

She needs to start communicating the detail of it to the common man. Not to prove its good, but so he can weigh it up against the other option of calling off Brexit altogether. That gets trotted out as unpalatable because 'the people have voted' yada yada. But (and maybe I'm stretching it a bit:)) if the common man can have a clear picture of the options, (and not just think 'what a sh.it show' 'theyre all useless' etc) by diverting the attention away from the circus and to something of substance we may just get somewhere.

Even 'no deal' has no constructive attention beyond being the doomsday default option. You'd think some hard Brexit believers would flesh it out a bit, giving scenarios, some timelines and some hoddle like vision that would stir discussion that would (rightly or wrongly) generate some belief that it's painful but viable.

That said...@nayimfromthehalfwayline is bang on when he says that no-one for one moment looks like they're prepared to suffer any pain even if the prospect of the country being in a better place in the future is the reward. Couple that with a tinkle pot team of politicians that would 'guide' us through it, i'd say they're more reasons to swerve it.
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Do it! Why are you waiting for others to articulate the future rewards of Brexit?

Part of a possible reason for why outcomes of Brexit are not talked through, might be because the benefits - even long term - are not easy to see.

But I completely agree with you at the lack of articulated vision. It’s frustrating. As a ‘remainer’ I could do a better job of outlining A Brexit vision than most Brexit politicians. The ERG - a supposed research group - can’t tell you what a brexit future should look like. Why is that?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
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the dza said:
The people's vote campaign did not want to push for the vote on a PV at this time and instead preferred to focus on extending Article 50, Campbell and others said as much. I don't know why TIG pushed for it (well I do, to have a pop at Labour -- playing politics you might say). But the smarter ones in the PV campaign (like Campbell) felt it wasn't the right time.

IMO, for a PV to work, they need all other options to be dead. Then the numbers in Parliament work in favour. This is why I think Campbell (arch Blairite, hater of Corbyn, Alastair Campbell) said what he did.
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I can't see a peoples vote getting through, not enough support. Hardly any Tories will support it, there's probably 70 Labour who won't plus the DUP and some independents as well.

If it goes to indicatives votes after the EU summit then something similar to Norway will end up getting approved though for most referendum supporters apart from those who just want remain at any cost they'd probably accept that.

Just came across this classic article from Chuka - https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...-drop-calls-for-new-brexit-vote-a3410601.html

Of course most of the establishment don't bring this up against him.
 
P.D. said:
I can't see a peoples vote getting through, not enough support. Hardly any Tories will support it, there's probably 70 Labour who won't plus the DUP and some independents as well.

If it goes to indicatives votes after the EU summit then something similar to Norway will end up getting approved though for most referendum supporters apart from those who just want remain at any cost they'd probably accept that.

Just came across this classic article from Chuka - https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...-drop-calls-for-new-brexit-vote-a3410601.html

Of course most of the establishment don't bring this up against him.
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I agree and I'd be happy if something like that was the end point. It would be a very British fudge (I meant fudge, not phuck). And you are right, a lot of Labour MPs are against a PV and it wouldn't matter if Corbyn came out strongly in favour imo -- the idea that MPs like John Mann are going to listen to him is, at best, optimistic.

Not surprising re. Chuka, I don't think he has much to offer anybody to be honest. There are centrists who know what they are on about, he isn't one of them imo.
 
the dza said:
I agree and I'd be happy if something like that was the end point. It would be a very British fudge (I meant fudge, not phuck). And you are right, a lot of Labour MPs are against a PV and it wouldn't matter if Corbyn came out strongly in favour imo -- the idea that MPs like John Mann are going to listen to him is, at best, optimistic.

Not surprising re. Chuka, I don't think he has much to offer anybody to be honest. There are centrists who know what they are on about, he isn't one of them imo.
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Chuka just says whatever he thinks will be popular at the time, has nothing really to add but communicates and comes across well so will always get airtime. He had a chance to become leader but mysteriously pulled out claiming he couldn't handle the attention yet is now the self proclaimed leader of another group.

Corbyn spent the last 30 years being anti EU, it's only the fact he's the leader now that he has to support a softer brexit. Apart from the economic/jobs impact that he'd have to front up to as leader I don't think he'd personally be against no deal and the options it would provide a left wing government.

Interesting to see the Labour splits now, 5 ministers have resigned already and more will come if/when the Kyle amendment is proposed. They really are going to have to set their stance out properly.
 
P.D. said:
Corbyn spent the last 30 years being anti EU, it's only the fact he's the leader now that he has to support a softer brexit. Apart from the economic/jobs impact that he'd have to front up to as leader I don't think he'd personally be against no deal and the options it would provide a left wing government.
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Agree, he's had to compromise some of his views whilst being leader. Although I don't think he is for a no-deal. Whilst there might be theoretical opportunities from it, I think it's possible to be anti-EU whilst confronting the reality of how complicated it is to leave the organisation in a way that protects workers here, and accept that a no-deal 'rip the cord' brexit probably isn't the best way to go about things.
 
the dza said:
I agree and I'd be happy if something like that was the end point. It would be a very British fudge (I meant fudge, not phuck). And you are right, a lot of Labour MPs are against a PV and it wouldn't matter if Corbyn came out strongly in favour imo -- the idea that MPs like John Mann are going to listen to him is, at best, optimistic.
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Isn't May's deal the real fudge, though?

As far as I can see, it has individual elements that should please most people (smooth transition to quell the hysterical types, end to free movement & the potential for doing trade deals for leavers, with remainers likely getting ongoing close ties to the EU), whereas anything along Norway lines offers little to anybody outside of the less-committed remain camp and perhaps, longer-term, more ardent remainers (for it's potential as a medium-term route back to full membership).
 
Parklaner81 said:
Isn't May's deal the real fudge, though?

As far as I can see, it has individual elements that should please most people (smooth transition to quell the hysterical types, end to free movement & the potential for doing trade deals for leavers, with remainers likely getting ongoing close ties to the EU), whereas anything along Norway lines offers little to anybody outside of the less-committed remain camp and perhaps, longer-term, more ardent remainers (for it's potential as a medium-term route back to full membership).
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Yeah, I think May's deal is a fudge but more to the leave side (end free movement, as you point out) and a Norway type deal is a fudge more to the remain side. I think the main reason remain politicians don't like May's deal is because Parliament won't have any say over what comes next, with the potential for the future trade relationship to be done by May or someone to her right, politically. I'm surprised that more leavers are not backing it, just to actually leave the EU. This still might happen.
 
the dza said:
Yeah, I think May's deal is a fudge but more to the leave side (end free movement, as you point out) and a Norway type deal is a fudge more to the remain side. I think the main reason remain politicians don't like May's deal is because Parliament won't have any say over what comes next, with the potential for the future trade relationship to be done by May or someone to her right, politically. I'm surprised that more leavers are not backing it, just to actually leave the EU. This still might happen.
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But surely, given that leave actually won the referendum, this is the way that it should be?

I'm also surprised May's deal hasn't gathered slightly more support, both from leavers and more fair-minded remainers (though, to their credit, I think a few have backed it). At the same time though I can fully understand genuinely-held reservations around the backstop, which in the absence of EU concessions leavers are going to have to weigh the risk of against further dilution of their ideals. It will be very interesting to see how much more movement there is from both groups when the crunch really comes on the 3rd or 4th vote because as you say, it may yet still get through.
 
Parklaner81 said:
But surely, given that leave actually won the referendum, this is the way that it should be?

I'm also surprised May's deal hasn't gathered slightly more support, both from leavers and more fair-minded remainers (though, to their credit, I think a few have backed it). At the same time though I can fully understand genuinely-held reservations around the backstop, which in the absence of EU concessions leavers are going to have to weigh the risk of against further dilution of their ideals. It will be very interesting to see how much more movement there is from both groups when the crunch really comes on the 3rd or 4th vote because as you say, it may yet still get through.
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I don't disagree. But I also don't think it's a good idea to pass the agreement through without any guarantees of what the future relationship is going to look like, or whether Parliament will have a strong hand in shaping that future. For remain/the left, that's the issue imo (Labour MPs like Lisa Nandy have said as much). No good voting for the WA and then we end up with PM Mogg negotiating the future relationship once they sling May out at the first opportunity.
 
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