Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Rorschach]

Getting a bit stupid in here. Night all.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I think she's confused, or you are.

why because we dont believe in the same things you do? we must be confused or thick, well she is not, two degrees would prove that. Me I left school early so you can throw that claim at me if you like.

Truth is Ireland wanted to continue to have special status with the UK this predates the EU it wanted freedom of its citizens to come to the UK. It did so because the were more economic opportunties in the UK, I get that, have absolutelty no problem with that and thought that even before I meet my wife. I also understood why it did not want any British government to have control over its affairs, totally understand that.

Just odd that your now in the EU in the same position that Ireland did not want with the UK.

The same could be said for Scotland and the SNP wanting to get more powers away from Westminster, which they will then just hand to the EU.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Getting a bit stupid in here. Night all.

Yeah I found it sad when an otherwise decent poster threatened violence against people who under free will decided to vote a certain way.

But that is the world now, when the liberal elite and the ones that follow them dont like how others think they start to abuse them.

Abuse and violence has to be highlighted.

 

[Grays_1890]

I will end my involvement on this subject on this.

The retrospective bleeting from remain is fine and much has put me in my place and I will admit that.

But the remain battle has been much stronger since the vote than it was before, so its all well and good blaming leave, liars and thickos for the problem but the reality is leaving the EU is a remainers problem and fault, you never presented this well before the vote and if you wanted to and was as passionate about stopping Brexit as you seem to be now, shouldn't you have done more before the vote?

Its the famous saying.....you would be great after the event.

Spur Me Up, I've flicked back and you have shown more passion and debate post Brexit than before, surely the marches and influencing voters was meant before the vote?

Fact is all this trying to justify remain is late, its does not matter no more, neither does my will to leave, I was asked a straight forward question, leave EU or remain and I decided to vote leave, anything after is just ego driven drival.

GHod bless you all and Viva Poch!!!!!

 

[Rorschach]

why because we dont believe in the same things you do? we must be confused or thick, well she is not, two degrees would prove that. Me I left school early so you can throw that claim at me if you like.

Truth is Ireland wanted to continue to have special status with the UK this predates the EU it wanted freedom of its citizens to come to the UK. It did so because the were more economic opportunties in the UK, I get that, have absolutelty no problem with that and thought that even before I meet my wife. I also understood why it did not want any British government to have control over its affairs, totally understand that.

Just odd that your now in the EU in the same position that Ireland did not want with the UK.

The same could be said for Scotland and the SNP wanting to get more powers away from Westminster, which they will then just hand to the EU.

Sorry, your comment on the war of independence bears no connection to the sentiment at the time. And then you are conflating a lot of later unrelated history to back up your point.

 

[Grays_1890]

I have a lot of Irish mates, they think it’s insane, they also feel less welcome here, two have moved to mainland Europe already and the rest are thinking about it.

It’s shameful.

My dads Irish and I live and drink in a huge Irish community and they have not said a word

So let's not kid ourselves that knowing a few that think this and take makes us right to speak on behalf of the whole of Ireland, its bigger than that.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Sorry, your comment on the war of independence bears no connection to the sentiment at the time. And then you are conflating a lot of later unrelated history to back up your point.

Why do the Irish still want special status with the UK?

Surely it is wrong to want special status without giving us the power to control Ireland.

This is not something I actually want by the way I am just playing devils advocate.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

My dads Irish and I live and drink in a huge Irish community and they have not said a word

So let's not kid ourselves that knowing a few that think this and take makes us right to speak on behalf of the whole of Ireland, its bigger than that.

Likewise, well not my dad, but the wife. None of them are remotely bothered, because you know what they still have the ability to come and work and live here no matter what our relationship with the EU.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I will end my involvement on this subject on this.

The retrospective bleeting from remain is fine and much has put me in my place and I will admit that.

But the remain battle has been much stronger since the vote than it was before, so its all well and good blaming leave, liars and thickos for the problem but the reality is leaving the EU is a remainers problem and fault, you never presented this well before the vote and if you wanted to and was as passionate about stopping Brexit as you seem to be now, shouldn't you have done more before the vote?

Its the famous saying.....you would be great after the event.

Spur Me Up, I've flicked back and you have shown more passion and debate post Brexit than before, surely the marches and influencing voters was meant before the vote?

Fact is all this trying to justify remain is late, its does not matter no more, neither does my will to leave, I was asked a straight forward question, leave EU or remain and I decided to vote leave, anything after is just ego driven drival.

GHod bless you all and Viva Poch!!!!!

I think the honest answer is, people didn't fully appreciate the complexities of it all pre-vote. I didn't. Trade gonads. EU laws. No one identified the issue of a border thretening peace in Ireland - I didn't even understand the history of ireland pre-brexit - if i am honest. I knew next to nothing about how international trade works. Or even the details of how migration works. You also had Farrage saying he thought a Norway model was the most viable Brexit in the run up to the vote. He couldn't be further from that position now.

But you're right. Remain were a shambles. Labour didn't get behind it. Camron was weak as partys in power are mid-term (by elections show this). Leave had one shot. They had money (Rusian) and they nailed their campaign. Kept it away from the economy. Made it about national pride and immigration.

Remain is complex to outline. And has been said, Brexit was the victory of simple lies over complex truth. That is not to say the issues Leave campaigned on were not important - they are - they resonate with people. But there has been nothing good come out of Brexit yet. And I doubt there ever will be.

 

[AuroRaman]

I've stayed out of the Brexit debate because it's your internal issue. As a Canadian, I don't have a right to tell you what to do. My genuine fear for you (a country I love and have deep personal ties to) is that you're going to get a shockingly rude awakening to the cold realities of geopolitics when you're out of the only power bloc that gave a damn about the wellbeing of the UK - a power bloc that, once you're out, has a real and pressing interest in making sure that you suffer for it, pour encourager les autres.

But I can tell you that, for Canada, our PM's trade advisory group (headed by an ex-leader of our Conservative Party) has already openly stated that a post-Brexit UK will be in the weakest position it's been in for a very long time, making the prospect of heavily one-sided trade deals that favor us and the United States pretty likely. And your government seems utterly unable to understand that you will need a lot of goodwill to avoid nations reaming you on all those deals - goodwill that rapidly runs out when you do things like make Jihadi Jack Canada's problem without a word's warning or care in the world.

And that's Canada, a nation that still has some sentimental ties to the old country, is a close security partner and a part of the Anglosphere you created.

The US, India and China will be far, far more brutally direct, and with India there's a tiny historical grievance they would much like to settle. Not to mention the EU itself, which has little reason to risk other members leaving by treating the UK with kid gloves.

I fear for your future with what you're doing. The world, as you will shortly realise unless you stop this, will not see you as anything other than roadkill. This is international relations realism at its basest level, and it has worked this way for thousands of years, ever since the Melian Dialogue laid out in stark simplicity what a weak nation can expect from those stronger than it.

And everything that truly made Britain a human exemplar, including one of the greatest human achievements of the 20th century in the NHS, will be sold lock, stock and barrel to pay the bills the world will demand.

I hope you don't do this - as someone who loves so many things about the UK, I hope you don't. I wish I could slap some fudging sense into all of you, but I can't.

All I can do is be sad you're doing this.

Bloody hell, what a post.

I will say that I don’t believe the NHS will be taken apart, Brexit or no Brexit. I think that is fear-mongering by one camp in the same way as the other side wrongly claims it is a failing organisation which needs to be fully privatised and run as a business.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[Rorschach]

Why do the Irish still want special status with the UK?

Surely it is wrong to want special status without giving us the power to control Ireland.

This is not something I actually want by the way I am just playing devils advocate.

Actually, how that will play out if brexit was to happen is a bit of a minefield. The old common travel arrangements may not apply or will need to be tweaked. The complications related to Irish, EU, UK (-NI) , NI (who are dual EU/UK) citizens rights is a clusterfudge that will take years to sort out IMO. What went before is not written in stone and brexit will change the landscape on this.

Your point on the Irish not wanting true independence is not true. This is the only point I made as some of your other points were a little vague, so I didn't want to go there.
Control Ireland. Ffs.
(edit I should have gone to bed when I said I was going)

 

[Grays_1890]

Well the EU was good to Ireland ey, so good that we bailed them out with over 3bn when their banks couldn't event buy a lercher between them.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Feel free to PM me next time your over for a match and I will happily meet up with you to discuss slapping some fudging sense into one another you disgusting fudging piece of brick.

You really don't know who you're talking to, mate, nor would you want to. But you do you.

If you think the NHS is so great I would like to know why pretty much no other country in Europe or the world has a national health service...

We all followed because your NHS did it first. The revolutionary idea that everyone deserved freedom from illness, regardless of wealth, was put into practice by you Brits first. Humanity owes you a debt for that - people the world over do.

Britain led the way. That your NHS is now struggling because the Tories don't fund it anywhere near the level of European health services is the fault of your Tories, not the NHS. Most of the first world funds healthcare far more than you do, and the NHS is still cost-effective despite that.

You don't know what you'll be losing.

As for other countries and trade deals, we can operate on WTO deals...

Mate, I work in this area - I've seen what Canada thinks of your chances post-Brexit. You likewise have no reason to believe me, but know that countries around the world are looking at Britain, and seeing what they can carve up in the fire sale of concessions that will follow the greatest mistake you will have made in 50 years.

I linked it above - our trade advisory body even said as much, openly. You're setting yourself up to be emasculated in global politics almost immediately post-Brexit, and it's bloody heartbreaking to see a great, open-hearted nation brought so low. Britain is admired across the world for all the things you've done, the nation you are - and we're all wondering how you could have gone so utterly fudging mad.

Also I am on holiday and am relaxed and happy but when I see a piece of brick like you.....

You're a child, mate. Sad to say it, but you've been utterly lied to by people who sold you up the river, and who convinced you that geopolitics doesn't exist and that the world will be lining up to treat you with the same gentleness that the EU did. The world will not, and the world doesn't give a single damn how childishly 52% of your country acts.

The EU sheltered you from what the world is truly like, by combining your power and potential market with that of your European neighbors and allies. Yes, the EU took a little power away from you - much like it did from most countries. Yes, the EU was skewed towards Germany - but you had a most powerful say in it, and you said 'no' to most things you didn't like. The EU was never the boogeyman it was built up to be in the heads of your Little Englanders.

You benefited from being in it, and Canada benefited from you being in it. We looked to you as a voice for us in Europe, and as the powerful moral voice of the Anglosphere, the counterweight to the strength of the Americans.

Now, when you leave, you will be utterly alone. the United States will roger you with the most one-sided trade deal you will see, and right behind them will be China. Behind them, the EU, which will want to make an example of you to deter the others from leaving. Behind them, India. And behind them, us, Australia, Japan, and all the rest.

The world doesn't work the way the EU did. Strength is the sine qua non of international politics, even today - especially today. And Britain will have a lot less than it once did, because you're throwing it all away.

Enjoy your holiday, and my sympathies for your illness.

 

[DubaiSpur]

If you think the EU has been working with the interests of the UK in mind then you haven't been paying attention.

The UK has always has less regulation and freer markets than its European competition. In order to neuter our ability to compete and undercut, the EU has worked in its own interests against those of the UK.

The UK has also benefited massively - enormously - from the Europe-wide harmonisation of regulations that the EU brought about. Analysis after analysis has identified this as a more important factor in boosting your trade output after the 'sick man of Europe' days than lowering tariffs. Beyond that, being in the EU brought you major, sustained and identifiable gains from trade, foreign direct investment, trade liberalisation (indeed, you were a far more closed-off economy *before* the EU) and innovation.

Did Germany, France et al try to give themselves a leg up now and then? Of course they did. But it was piecemeal, child's play, compared to the benefits being a leading member in their club brought you, and it was gentle stuff given the ways in which they also cooperated with you and disadvantaged themselves to do so.

The thing is, outside of the EU, the world is a ruthlessly realist place. The UK has forgotten that, and the ceaseless rhetoric from those most in favor of Brexit is utterly delusional - it presumes that the world will treat Britain like EU members did. No other country will, because it benefits absolutely no one to treat the UK fairly in a moment of weakness.

On my end, Canada will benefit from proposing a trade deal with Britain at its weakest - we won't need to offer the UK access to our market or standardisation of regulations to anywhere near the same level that we have with the US (via USMCA) and the EU (EU-Canada FTA), because the internal markets of those two are far larger than the UK's. No benefit to us to offer the UK much, so we can get away with more.

And personally, I'll probably put in a lot of overtime working on Canada's collective approach to that deal, when it happens, so it isn't like I'm losing out because of what you're doing - quite the opposite.

But that's only short-term. In the long-term, Canada loses out, because, at the head of Europe, Britain was one of the most powerful partners we had. And seeing you doing well in Europe allowed Canada to dream of a day when Europe as a whole formed a solid counterweight to America, allowing Canada strategic freedom and the ability to choose to align with progressive allies across the Atlantic, led by our oldest partners and friends. That will end when you leave.

And, from my heart. You are the nation of Elgar, of Shakespeare, of Gladstone and Disraeli, of Attlee and Bevan - of long shadows across green fields, and of an abiding sense of fairness and decency. From ending slavery to introducing universal healthcare, Britain has many firsts it can be proud of.

I have family in the UK. I have friends from the UK. I support a football team from the UK, I watch your movies, laugh at your comedies, sigh at your tragedies, drink your beer, eat your food, and I want the very best for you as a nation.

And this isn't it. By GHod, this isn't it - you're burning down your own place in the world because you were lied to by charlatans, and it's heartbreaking to see.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

You really don't know who you're talking to, mate, nor would you want to. But you do you.



We all followed because your NHS did it first. The revolutionary idea that everyone deserved freedom from illness, regardless of wealth, was put into practice by you Brits first. Humanity owes you a debt for that - people the world over do.

Britain led the way. That your NHS is now struggling because the Tories don't fund it anywhere near the level of European health services is the fault of your Tories, not the NHS. Most of the first world funds healthcare far more than you do, and the NHS is still cost-effective despite that.

You don't know what you'll be losing.



Mate, I work in this area - I've seen what Canada thinks of your chances post-Brexit. You likewise have no reason to believe me, but know that countries around the world are looking at Britain, and seeing what they can carve up in the fire sale of concessions that will follow the greatest mistake you will have made in 50 years.

I linked it above - our trade advisory body even said as much, openly. You're setting yourself up to be emasculated in global politics almost immediately post-Brexit, and it's bloody heartbreaking to see a great, open-hearted nation bought so low. Britain is admired across the world for all the things you've done, the nation you are - and we're all wondering how you could have gone so utterly fudging mad.



You're a child, mate. Sad to say it, but you've been utterly lied to by people who sold you up the river, and who convinced you that geopolitics doesn't exist and that the world will be lining up to treat you with the same gentleness that the EU did. The world will not, and the world doesn't give a single damn how childishly 52% of your country acts.

The EU sheltered you from what the world is truly like, by combining your power and potential market with that of your European neighbors and allies. Yes, the EU took a little power away from you - much like it did from most countries. Yes, the EU was skewed towards Germany - but you had a most powerful say in it, and you said 'no' to most things you didn't like. The EU was never the boogeyman it was built up to be in the heads of your Little Englanders.

You benefited from being in it, and Canada benefited from you being in it. We looked to you as a voice for us in Europe, and as the powerful moral voice of the Anglosphere, the counterweight to the strength of the Americans.

Now, when you leave, you will be utterly alone. the United States will roger you with the most one-sided trade deal you will see, and right behind them will be China. Behind them, the EU, which will want to make an example of you to deter the others from leaving. Behind them, India. And behind them, us, Australia, Japan, and all the rest.

The world doesn't work the way the EU did. Strength is the sine qua non of international politics, even today - especially today. And Britain will have a lot less than it once did, because you're throwing it all away.

Enjoy your holiday, and my sympathies for your illness.

My views on the EU have been there for 20 years got nothing to do with Farage or what anyone said in the referendum

You and your sort want to say anyone that did not vote the way you wanted is thick.

Also you said you want to fudging slap sense into us.

So let's meet up when your in town. I am happy to defend democracy.

PM next time your in town big man and well see what happens you fudging fascist piece of brick. Remember you started this with the violence and threat of it.

 

[Baleforce]

I have an Irish wife and she thinks its insane that she moved to a country that does not have full rights over its own courts and has to take decisions from Europe, she often has to give evidence in court on some of the social care cases she works.

As for feeling less welcome I suspect they are snowflakes. The Irish like most people will not suddenly stop coming here, Australia and America with immigration rules that we will allegedly try to follow are two of the most popular countries in the world to immigrate to.

Also worth noting and I say this with a Irish wife that the Irish in their battle for Independence never actually wanted true Independence, which is why they demanded the rules that the be freedom of movement between Ireland and Britain, they did this because they wanted to come to the UK to work(notably living good hard working lives) they wanted the freedom and a head start on other countries to come to the UK to work and make money but did not want to be governed by us. I have no issues with that, except that the is a glaring obvious hypocrisy to what is going on in the UK with its relationship with the EU right now.

We are part of Europe, we are a part of that process, they are our own.

 

[SpurMeUp]

My views on the EU have been there for 20 years got nothing to do with Farage or what anyone said in the referendum

You and your sort want to say anyone that did not vote the way you wanted is thick.

Also you said you want to fudging slap sense into us.

So let's meet up when your in town. I am happy to defend democracy.

PM next time your in town big man and well see what happens you fudging fascist piece of brick. Remember you started this with the violence and threat of it.

Can you slap some brick into our politicians instead? You don’t like his views but threatening him for posting them is a shame. It’s only politics, not like the arsenal game!!!


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[scaramanga]

 

[scaramanga]

The UK has also benefited massively - enormously - from the Europe-wide harmonisation of regulations that the EU bought about. Analysis after analysis has identified this as a more important factor in boosting your trade output after the 'sick man of Europe' days than lowering tariffs. Beyond that, being in the EU bought you major, sustained and identifiable gains from trade, foreign direct investment, trade liberalisation (indeed, you were a far more closed-off economy *before* the EU) and innovation.

Only 15% of our GDP is exports to the EU. I'm currently sitting in an office, attached to a factory that cannot compete in RoW trade because the other 85% of everything we do is also subject to EU regulations.

That's a preposterous situation. If the EU wants to trade, fine. If the EU wants to put expensive and prohibitive regulations in place on EU products, fine. But fudge them if they want to tell us what we can and can't sell to our own market, or Dubai or the US.

Did Germany, France et al try to give themselves a leg up now and then? Of course they did. But it was piecemeal, child's play, compared to the benefits being a leading member in their club bought you, and it was gentle stuff given the ways in which they also cooperated with you and disadvantaged themselves to do so.

They did whatever suited them at all times. Look at how they treated Ireland over the Lisbon "treaty." Where was our veto for the working time directive? Or the Solvent Emissions Directive?

The thing is, outside of the EU, the world is a ruthlessly realist place. The UK has forgotten that, and the ceaseless rhetoric from those most in favor of Brexit is utterly delusional - it presumes that the world will treat Britain like EU members did. No other country will, because it benefits absolutely no one to treat the UK fairly in a moment of weakness.

On my end, Canada will benefit from proposing a trade deal with Britain at its weakest - we won't need to offer the UK access to our market or standardisation of regulations to anywhere near the same level that we have with the US (via USMCA) and the EU (EU-Canada FTA), because the internal markets of those two are far larger than the UK's. No benefit to us to offer the UK much, so we can get away with more.

And personally, I'll probably put in a lot of overtime working on Canada's collective approach to that deal, when it happens, so it isn't like I'm losing out because of what you're doing - quite the opposite.

We don't want your standardisation of regulations thanks. If we want to sell into Canada we'll have to fit with your regulations - I'm perfectly happy with that, just leave our regulations where we can change them with govt every 5 years.

But that's only short-term. In the long-term, Canada loses out, because, at the head of Europe, Britain was one of the most powerful partners we had. And seeing you doing well in Europe allowed Canada to dream of a day when Europe as a whole formed a solid counterweight to America, allowing Canada strategic freedom and the ability to choose to align with progressive allies across the Atlantic, led by our oldest partners and friends. That will end when you leave.

And, from my heart. You are the nation of Elgar, of Shakespeare, of Gladstone and Disraeli, of Attlee and Bevan - of long shadows across green fields, and of an abiding sense of fairness and decency. From ending slavery to introducing universal healthcare, Britain has many firsts it can be proud of.

I have family in the UK. I have friends from the UK. I support a football team from the UK, I watch your movies, laugh at your comedies, sigh at your tragedies, drink your beer, eat your food, and I want the very best for you as a nation.

And this isn't it. By GHod, this isn't it - you're burning down your own place in the world because you were lied to by charlatans, and it's heartbreaking to see.

As a fan of British history, I'm surprised you consider conflict in one form or another with Europe to be anything other than our natural state.

We're still the country of all those wonderful things, and historical stains like Attlee and Bevan too. Now though, we'll again be the country that was able to create that, not some subservient lapdog to Germany and France. We'll be the low tax, low regulation competition that either steals trade from the EU or (hopefully) forces the EU to see that the only way to compete is to take down all the barriers to trade they keep building and act like a free trading bloc in the modern world. If they do so, I'd have no issue with, once again, collaborating with them to create something bigger and better.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

The UK has also benefited massively - enormously - from the Europe-wide harmonisation of regulations that the EU bought about. Analysis after analysis has identified this as a more important factor in boosting your trade output after the 'sick man of Europe' days than lowering tariffs. Beyond that, being in the EU bought you major, sustained and identifiable gains from trade, foreign direct investment, trade liberalisation (indeed, you were a far more closed-off economy *before* the EU) and innovation.

Did Germany, France et al try to give themselves a leg up now and then? Of course they did. But it was piecemeal, child's play, compared to the benefits being a leading member in their club bought you, and it was gentle stuff given the ways in which they also cooperated with you and disadvantaged themselves to do so.

The thing is, outside of the EU, the world is a ruthlessly realist place. The UK has forgotten that, and the ceaseless rhetoric from those most in favor of Brexit is utterly delusional - it presumes that the world will treat Britain like EU members did. No other country will, because it benefits absolutely no one to treat the UK fairly in a moment of weakness.

On my end, Canada will benefit from proposing a trade deal with Britain at its weakest - we won't need to offer the UK access to our market or standardisation of regulations to anywhere near the same level that we have with the US (via USMCA) and the EU (EU-Canada FTA), because the internal markets of those two are far larger than the UK's. No benefit to us to offer the UK much, so we can get away with more.

And personally, I'll probably put in a lot of overtime working on Canada's collective approach to that deal, when it happens, so it isn't like I'm losing out because of what you're doing - quite the opposite.

But that's only short-term. In the long-term, Canada loses out, because, at the head of Europe, Britain was one of the most powerful partners we had. And seeing you doing well in Europe allowed Canada to dream of a day when Europe as a whole formed a solid counterweight to America, allowing Canada strategic freedom and the ability to choose to align with progressive allies across the Atlantic, led by our oldest partners and friends. That will end when you leave.

And, from my heart. You are the nation of Elgar, of Shakespeare, of Gladstone and Disraeli, of Attlee and Bevan - of long shadows across green fields, and of an abiding sense of fairness and decency. From ending slavery to introducing universal healthcare, Britain has many firsts it can be proud of.

I have family in the UK. I have friends from the UK. I support a football team from the UK, I watch your movies, laugh at your comedies, sigh at your tragedies, drink your beer, eat your food, and I want the very best for you as a nation.

And this isn't it. By GHod, this isn't it - you're burning down your own place in the world because you were lied to by charlatans, and it's heartbreaking to see.

Have you decided on the music to accompany this post yet?