Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Mikey10]

From my memory Omagh was the big turning point. The brutality of that seemed to lose the IRA the support of a big chunk on their own community. And then the World Trade Centre thing a few years later permanently cut off the IRA's funding, when America experienced the consequences of their funding.

I think the reunification will happen sooner rather than later. I think emotionally Brexit was a big shock to the loyalists, realising how little England and Wales actually wants them and seeing how readily it threw them under a bus. Sein Fein also seem to be doing a decent job of governing for, rather than against them, and assuaging a lot of the fears of what a united Ireland will look like

Omagh took place six months after the signing of The Good Friday Agreement, so a peace agreement was already in place, and (a shaky) peace was already established. The bombing was carried out by The Real IRA, a splinter group opposed to the new direction of the Republican leadership. I’d agree, though, that it made a return to violence less likely, such was the revulsion from both sides of the community to the incident.

On Sinn Fein, I’d say the general view is that they’re doing anything but a good job of governing. They have been mired in a series of scandals.

Explained: The timeline of Sinn Féin's scandals | BreakingNews.ie

From the Michael McMonagle controversy to Brian Stanley's resignation, the average person may well wonder when it all started to go wrong.

www.breakingnews.ie

These, along with the view that they actually aren’t great at the day-to-day slog of ‘normal’ politics, saw them suffer a pretty poor recent election result in the Republic, where their support halved.

Here's some key reasons why Sinn Féin have had a nightmare election

Sinn Féin's disastrous performance in this year’s local and European elections is likely to have sent the party scurrying back to the drawing board.

extra.ie

For most people in Northern Ireland, thoughts of unity just aren’t on their agenda. Life there has normalised greatly and people just get on with it. The British state is by far the biggest employer there and hundreds of thousands from the Catholic community are employed by it, meaning that any romantic ideals of unity face stark economic realities.
Taking on a country which relies so heavily on very high levels of government spending would, according to many studies, cost the average taxpayer in the Republic thousands of pounds a year, a reality which means support for it may be pretty fragile once figures are presented to the electorate there.

United Ireland could cost €20bn a year for 20 years, says new study

Irish unity would push up cost to taxpayers, IIEA report says

www.irishtimes.com

As I said, highly unlikely to happen in the lifetime of anyone posting on here today.

 

[Gutter Boy]

With Sinn Fein I meant things like this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0qdl95l0n1o, rather than governing competence. That seemed a pretty big gesture, being prepared to do something important for loyalists, to unionist disapproval. I.e. attempting to govern for the province, not just their half of it.

 

[glasgowspur]

Omagh took place six months after the signing of The Good Friday Agreement, so a peace agreement was already in place, and (a shaky) peace was already established. The bombing was carried out by The Real IRA, a splinter group opposed to the new direction of the Republican leadership. I’d agree, though, that it made a return to violence less likely, such was the revulsion from both sides of the community to the incident.

On Sinn Fein, I’d say the general view is that they’re doing anything but a good job of governing. They have been mired in a series of scandals.

Explained: The timeline of Sinn Féin's scandals | BreakingNews.ie

From the Michael McMonagle controversy to Brian Stanley's resignation, the average person may well wonder when it all started to go wrong.

www.breakingnews.ie

These, along with the view that they actually aren’t great at the day-to-day slog of ‘normal’ politics, saw them suffer a pretty poor recent election result in the Republic, where their support halved.

Here's some key reasons why Sinn Féin have had a nightmare election

Sinn Féin's disastrous performance in this year’s local and European elections is likely to have sent the party scurrying back to the drawing board.

extra.ie

For most people in Northern Ireland, thoughts of unity just aren’t on their agenda. Life there has normalised greatly and people just get on with it. The British state is by far the biggest employer there and hundreds of thousands from the Catholic community are employed by it, meaning that any romantic ideals of unity face stark economic realities.
Taking on a country which relies so heavily on very high levels of government spending would, according to many studies, cost the average taxpayer in the Republic thousands of pounds a year, a reality which means support for it may be pretty fragile once figures are presented to the electorate there.

United Ireland could cost €20bn a year for 20 years, says new study

Irish unity would push up cost to taxpayers, IIEA report says

www.irishtimes.com

As I said, highly unlikely to happen in the lifetime of anyone posting on here today.

I would think there is a fair chance that the polls in Ireland are similar to Scotland.
Independence runs at about 40-45% in the polls, until you ask if you were £1000 pa worse off after independence would you still vote for it, then it drops to mid 20s.
The idea is nice, the reality is not so appealing.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

So would you allow someone to teach your child who had a pending accusation? No.

I can't fathom why the standards would be different for police.

Yes as I would wait till someone was guilty till they were sacked. I think the should be tougher sentences for sex crimes. I just think people should be found guilty till they punished.

What is your general view on how women should be treated in society?

 

[LutonSpurs]

Yes as I would wait till someone was guilty till they were sacked. I think the should be tougher sentences for sex crimes. I just think people should be found guilty till they punished.

What is your general view on how women should be treated in society?

With equity

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

With equity

That's one thing we share in common, I was not sure.

 

[Rorschach]

Omagh took place six months after the signing of The Good Friday Agreement, so a peace agreement was already in place, and (a shaky) peace was already established. The bombing was carried out by The Real IRA, a splinter group opposed to the new direction of the Republican leadership. I’d agree, though, that it made a return to violence less likely, such was the revulsion from both sides of the community to the incident.

On Sinn Fein, I’d say the general view is that they’re doing anything but a good job of governing. They have been mired in a series of scandals.

Explained: The timeline of Sinn Féin's scandals | BreakingNews.ie

From the Michael McMonagle controversy to Brian Stanley's resignation, the average person may well wonder when it all started to go wrong.

www.breakingnews.ie

These, along with the view that they actually aren’t great at the day-to-day slog of ‘normal’ politics, saw them suffer a pretty poor recent election result in the Republic, where their support halved.

Here's some key reasons why Sinn Féin have had a nightmare election

Sinn Féin's disastrous performance in this year’s local and European elections is likely to have sent the party scurrying back to the drawing board.

extra.ie

For most people in Northern Ireland, thoughts of unity just aren’t on their agenda. Life there has normalised greatly and people just get on with it. The British state is by far the biggest employer there and hundreds of thousands from the Catholic community are employed by it, meaning that any romantic ideals of unity face stark economic realities.
Taking on a country which relies so heavily on very high levels of government spending would, according to many studies, cost the average taxpayer in the Republic thousands of pounds a year, a reality which means support for it may be pretty fragile once figures are presented to the electorate there.

United Ireland could cost €20bn a year for 20 years, says new study

Irish unity would push up cost to taxpayers, IIEA report says

www.irishtimes.com

As I said, highly unlikely to happen in the lifetime of anyone posting on here today.

That 20bil number got a lot of airtime last year but the analysis is deeply flawed, and overstates the cost significantly. I'm pretty sure that is the report I heard brutally picked apart on the Sunday morning shows that I mentioned in my post above. A counter-analysis showed the figure south of 5bil, but whatever it is I don't think the cost will be the driving reason one way or another when the time comes. I don't know when that would be but as Hemingway said things have a way of happening 'gradually then suddenly'. The distruction of the post war US/European alliance happening in real time is a case in point.

 

[Mikey10]

That 20bil number got a lot of airtime last year but the analysis is deeply flawed, and overstates the cost significantly. I'm pretty sure that is the report I heard brutally picked apart on the Sunday morning shows that I mentioned in my post above. A counter-analysis showed the figure south of 5bil, but whatever it is I don't think the cost will be the driving reason one way or another when the time comes. I don't know when that would be but as Hemingway said things have a way of happening 'gradually then suddenly'. The distruction of the post war US/European alliance happening in real time is a case in point.

Hard to know how that plays out. Could result in the UK growing stronger ties with Europe again, removing something which might drive any thought of a change to the status quo.

I’ve been hearing that unity is a few years off for most of my life - growing up in Northern Ireland, the Anglo-Irish Agreement in the 80s was apparently the precursor to it, then it was The Good Friday Agreement in the 90s, now it’s the aftermath of Brexit…

There really is little real appetite for it in NI. Until that changes, things will stay as they are. I’m 55. I’d bet everything I own that it won’t be in my lifetime.

Anyhow, time to focus on today’s game!

 

[LutonSpurs]

That's one thing we share in common, I was not sure.

What is it about me that makes you unsure?

 

[Rorschach]

Hard to know how that plays out. Could result in the UK growing stronger ties with Europe again, removing something which might drive any thought of a change to the status quo.

I’ve been hearing that unity is a few years off for most of my life - growing up in Northern Ireland, the Anglo-Irish Agreement in the 80s was apparently the precursor to it, then it was The Good Friday Agreement in the 90s, now it’s the aftermath of Brexit…

There really is little real appetite for it in NI. Until that changes, things will stay as they are. I’m 55. I’d bet everything I own that it won’t be in my lifetime.

Anyhow, time to focus on today’s game!

Yep it is always just a few years away . A bit like cold fusion.

Brexit rather than accelerating reunification paused that trend somewhat, in the short term at least. NI was the only part of the UK that came out of that madness with anything positive and unionists inexplicability fought the final settlement tooth and nail if I recall. If a hard border had sprung up again as they were looking for (and trust me that was being prepared for as an eventuality south of the border) I think that would have driven things on that much faster. Anyway who knows how things will pan out as you say.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

What is it about me that makes you unsure?

Not sure I can think of one thing in particular, it was just a general vibe. Pleased that I'm wrong about that though so all good.

 

[LutonSpurs]

Not sure I can think of one thing in particular, it was just a general vibe. Pleased that I'm wrong about that though so all good.

Vibe? Show me a post on here which indicates I am a mysognyist? Or say what it is "about" me that gives you that vibe if you have any integrity

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Vibe? Show me a post on here which indicates I am a mysognyist? Or say what it is "about" me that gives you that vibe if you have any integrity

Well it's not to do with integrity. Some people give off a vibe without being able to put your finger on one specific thing.

Pleased you confirmed you are not, which is enough to calm my concerns. No ones judgement is infallible I am glad my initial thoughts are misplaced.

The were quite a few on here that were saying that anyone who believed in national democracy (brexit) were right wing nutters etc. As someone who believes in national democracy but does not consider him right wing, I was aghast. But had the emotional maturity to understand that other people's opinions of ne are not a true reflection of my outlook in life.

I'm very pleased you believe in equality for women. We are the same in that we wish to live in a society were women are given the same rights as us men.


Oh, I feel all warm and fuzzy now. It's lovely when we all get along.

 

[LutonSpurs]

Well it's not to do with integrity. Some people give off a vibe without being able to put your finger on one specific thing.

Pleased you confirmed you are not, which is enough to calm my concerns. No ones judgement is infallible I am glad my initial thoughts are misplaced.

The were quite a few on here that were saying that anyone who believed in national democracy (brexit) were right wing nutters etc. As someone who believes in national democracy but does not consider him right wing, I was aghast. But had the emotional maturity to understand that other people's opinions of ne are not a true reflection of my outlook in life.

I'm very pleased you believe in equality for women. We are the same in that we wish to live in a society were women are given the same rights as us men.


Oh, I feel all warm and fuzzy now. It's lovely when we all get along.

You are down right offensive.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

You are down right offensive.

Well it's your right to be offended of course. But nothing offensive was actually said. I got an impression from reading your posts over the years you were a bit anti women.

In fact the was one I quoted the other week where you said JK Rowling was anti trans and I asked for an incident where she said something wrong so we could decide if she was. As all I have ever seen her do is protect women's rights.

I shall see if I can find it again and requote(not a word) it.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Found it in the American politics thread. Original post was a few pages back. But I quoted my response to your assertions.

It was remarks like that in that thread that made me think you thought women did not deserve to be treated equally and with respect.

But you have told me right here that you do think they deserve equality and I have taken your good word at face value and thankfully can admit to being wrong. You eased my concern and I believe you to truly believe that women deserve equality. So my assumptions were wrong.

This is why we must always engage and discuss, because only through discourse can we learn grow and educate. I'm pleased I brought it up and your remarks that you believe in equality have completely dissipated any concerns I had in that regard.

 

[monkeybarry]

Starmer 'ready' to put UK troops on ground in Ukraine to protect peace

Sir Keir Starmer said securing a lasting peace in Ukraine was "essential" to deter Vladimir Putin from future aggression.

www.bbc.co.uk

My guess is we are moving towards the withdrawal of the US from NATO and NATO becoming a European defence force.

This is the kind of upcoming war that the UK will lead on.
Politically it's very good for Starmer.
It will probably see a door opening to closer integration with the EU again in some form or another.
Quite what it looks like with the US, I'm not sure. And do we decide to keep buying from the US, or elsewhere.

 

[LutonSpurs]

Found it in the American politics thread. Original post was a few pages back. But I quoted my response to your assertions.

It was remarks like that in that thread that made me think you thought women did not deserve to be treated equally and with respect.

But you have told me right here that you do think they deserve equality and I have taken your good word at face value and thankfully can admit to being wrong. You eased my concern and I believe you to truly believe that women deserve equality. So my assumptions were wrong.

This is why we must always engage and discuss, because only through discourse can we learn grow and educate. I'm pleased I brought it up and your remarks that you believe in equality have completely dissipated any concerns I had in that regard.

Stick your concern. Imane Khelif is a woman. And JK started a pile on her. She was wrong. Imane is a biological female. With ovaries and vagina. JK didn't respect her. So do me a favour and don't presume whether I respect women or not without actually knowing what the hell you are on about

 

[LutonSpurs]

Here is the story. JK did not stand up for this woman's rights. She made her life hell

BBC News - Rowling and Musk reportedly named in Khelif cyberbullying complaint

JK Rowling and Elon Musk reportedly named in Imane Khelif complaint

The Paris public prosecutor's office says it has launched a cyberbullying probe.

www.bbc.com

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Stick your concern. Imane Khelif is a woman. And JK started a pile on her. She was wrong. Imane is a biological female. With ovaries and vagina. JK didn't respect her. So do me a favour and don't presume whether I respect women or not without actually knowing what the hell you are on about

I think Rowling may have disagreements with biological women. A lot of it coming from Rowling's desire to protect women's safe spaces and rights.

Living as we do in a wonderful liberal democracy, you will always get people with differences of opinions. But again I have not seen anything from Rowling that I consider anti trans.

She has spent years a lot of her money and personal time towards helping women's charities.

I did not so much presume but said I got a vibe that I did not feel you believed in equality towards women. But your heartfelt and sincere response has convinced me you do. After which I said I believed you believe in equality.

It is a testament to my maturity and intelligence that I can change my opinion.

The last sentence in your post "what the hell your going on about" makes you sound like your getting irate. So I think perhaps you should take some time to calm down and we can carry the debate on another time. Also it does not bother me (although raised Catholic, I don't believe) but the use of the word hell might be interpreted as a hate crime by some.

As well as equality towards women we should also be mindful of religious people and some of them might be triggered by the use of the word hell. In this lovely liberal democracy we all enjoy and wish to protect we should be mindful of using words like hell.


Have a lovely evening.