Paris

[braineclipse]

Thats an interesting article but with way to many points for me to just pick out. Is there any points (if you have the time or inclination) that you would like to discuss?

Yes. The one about the Saudi cleric Muhammed Al-Areefi, his statements and the size of his twitter following.

 

[scaramanga]

@braineclipse if you are advocating diresion and mockery of terrorists im with you i truely am, this would be more affective if it came from or jointly with the muslim community though.

What i dont agree with at all is the mocking of the belief of 1.6 billion people. Thats going to lead to more division, more people thinking the west is against them and ultimately make it easier for Isis and the like to recruit. I dont want to make it easier for them. I want to make it harder for them.

They want us to alienate the muslim community, through (although not exclusively) mocking of their faith. they want the far right to start attacking mosques and muslims in the west. This Chaos and division is part of their gameplan, i want to counter it not play in to their hands.

None of this is to say that Islam or any other religion cant or shouldnt be subject to criticism when needed and in balanced and non insulting way. Of course it should. But mockery is not critic it an l insult, and its not even insult at what should be the target (Isis).

I think you've misunderstood both @braineclipse and me (if he doesn't mind me speaking on his behalf).

To my knowledge we're both equal opportunity ridicule makers. I find all religions as ridiculous and I do Islam and whilst Islam is the one currently causing the most harm, I want to see the end of all religion.

I consider freedom of thought and reasoning to be one of the things that separates us from the animals. Brainwashing people until they no longer have those abilities is like chopping off someone's opposable thumbs.

 

[DTA]

Yes. The one about the Saudi cleric Muhammed Al-Areefi, his statements and the size of his twitter following.

Not at all familiar with him, and by the sounds of it not sure i want to give anyone like that any 'traffic' by looking up his twitter.

What does he say?.... but then again lets just assume that he says Isis like bullcrap (i really dont know what he says)... so go after his specifically offensive views attack them with intelligence, compasion and reason and you have a chance of reducing his followers ... tell him he believes in the spaghetti monster and so do all muslims/those of faith and you have just increased his chance of attracting more.... which option do you prefer?

 

[DTA]

I think you've misunderstood both @braineclipse and me (if he doesn't mind me speaking on his behalf).

To my knowledge we're both equal opportunity ridicule makers. I find all religions as ridiculous and I do Islam and whilst Islam is the one currently causing the most harm, I want to see the end of all religion.

I consider freedom of thought and reasoning to be one of the things that separates us from the animals. Brainwashing people until they no longer have those abilities is like chopping off someone's opposable thumbs.

But i dont believe ridicule of any faith is the answer to making the world a better place.

 

[Robspur12]

This is much more complicated than simply a religious war being waged by Isis. Presently it is a sectarian struggle, a good old fashioned land grab , within Islam by the Sunni extremists who were displaced in the aftermath of the Iraqi invasion. They are tinkled with the Shias who basically took power from them and reduced the Sunnis to also rans in the "new " Iraq. The fighters are made up of the old Baathist republican guard. Primarily they want their own state and revenge on the Shia. As far as I am aware they have not made any noises yet about attacking Israel. The reason they are attacking the West is not because we are Christians but because we are attacking them. Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism etc all have wonderful teachings and practices that give many billions of law abiding and peaceful people huge comfort. The problem always comes however if we accept all teachings and passages without question. In reality I do not believe that GHod who ever you believe him to be wants you to give up your enquiring mind. In fact several religions including Islam and Christianity warn adherents to guard against false prophets.

 

[Baleforce]

But i dont believe ridicule of any faith is the answer to making the world a better place.

that's how we have advanced, previously accepted ideas such as the earth being flat or the sun orbiting Earth have fallen away to ridicule from those who knew better

you challenge stupidity with facts

 

[scaramanga]

This is much more complicated than simply a religious war being waged by Isis. Presently it is a sectarian struggle, a good old fashioned land grab , within Islam by the Sunni extremists who were displaced in the aftermath of the Iraqi invasion. They are tinkleed with the Shias who basically took power from them and reduced the Sunnis to also rans in the "new " Iraq. The fighters are made up of the old Baathist republican guard. Primarily they want their own state and revenge on the Shia. As far as I am aware they have not made any noises yet about attacking Israel. The reason they are attacking the West is not because we are Christians but because we are attacking them.

Well that's entirely at odds with their stated aims. According to ISIS (and I can't see how anyone else can judge their motives) they simply want to take over the world and if not, they want Islam to.

Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism etc all have wonderful teachings and practices that give many billions of law abiding and peaceful people huge comfort.

There is not a single good religious teaching that cannot be achieved via Secular Humanism, and Secular Humanism has none of the downsides.

A few good teachings doesn't nullify all the bad ones.

The problem always comes however if we accept all teachings and passages without question. In reality I do not believe that GHod who ever you believe him to be wants you to give up your enquiring mind.

There is no application of an open, enquiring mind that can lead to religion.

 

[braineclipse]

I think you've misunderstood both @braineclipse and me (if he doesn't mind me speaking on his behalf).

To my knowledge we're both equal opportunity ridicule makers. I find all religions as ridiculous and I do Islam and whilst Islam is the one currently causing the most harm, I want to see the end of all religion.

I consider freedom of thought and reasoning to be one of the things that separates us from the animals. Brainwashing people until they no longer have those abilities is like chopping off someone's opposable thumbs.

Pretty much yeah.

Though to clarify a bit. I would primarily make fun of religious leaders and doctrines, not individual followers. Though the more grevious the beliefs become the more ridicule I believe is deserved for the individual follower too.

I also think a thoughtful approach to the problem of religion requires a lot of different approaches. Sometimes ridicule is not helpful, and my approach when talking to someone will just about never be about ridicule first or even second.

Freedom of expression is a corner stone to a civilized society. It's one thing we cannot do without. It's being attacked by law by some people hoping to instill blasphemy laws. But the people trying to silence people by violence are perhaps even worse. Their claims about what is and what isn't acceptable discourse doesn't even deserve a seat at the table when discussions about what is appropriate and what is not is being discussed.

I find it baffling that because others might also be butthurt enough to turn to violence we should change the way we behave and silence our criticism. This to me is surrender. What about when the presence of a Jewish museum makes them butthurt enough to turn to violence? Do we surrender this too? How about when their right to oppress their own women is being questioned hurts their precious feelings about their alleged GHod and prophet? Surrender?

Not at all familiar with him, and by the sounds of it not sure i want to give anyone like that any 'traffic' by looking up his twitter.

What does he say?.... but then again lets just assume that he says Isis like bullcrap (i really dont know what he says)... so go after his specifically offensive views attack them with intelligence, compasion and reason and you have a chance of reducing his followers ... tell him he believes in the spaghetti monster and so do all muslims/those of faith and you have just increased his chance of attracting more.... which option do you prefer?

What does the size of his (twitter) following tell us though? (If we assume it's ISIS bullcrap)

If this was a guy with 1000 followers I think he could be ignored. There are nutters everywhere... But when that many people seem to care what he says is he part of the fringe? Or is he part of something much larger than that?

This doesn't give you cause for concern at all? 13 million people follow this guy. I assume most of them claiming to belong to a religion with the same name as yours...

But i dont believe ridicule of any faith is the answer to making the world a better place.

But I assume you're also not of the opinion that the world needs less religion?

You don't think I should ridicule the vatican for spending billions on protecting pedophile priests? That doesn't deserve ridicule? Along with the fact of them claiming to be an authority on morality it seems like the kind of thing that demands ridicule, hatred and contempt.

 

[parklane1]

But i dont believe ridicule of any faith is the answer to making the world a better place.

I agree, I am not a religious person by no means but those who say the end of religion would mean the end of conflict are living in cloud cuckoo land.

 

[braineclipse]

This is much more complicated than simply a religious war being waged by Isis. Presently it is a sectarian struggle, a good old fashioned land grab , within Islam by the Sunni extremists who were displaced in the aftermath of the Iraqi invasion. They are tinkleed with the Shias who basically took power from them and reduced the Sunnis to also rans in the "new " Iraq. The fighters are made up of the old Baathist republican guard. Primarily they want their own state and revenge on the Shia. As far as I am aware they have not made any noises yet about attacking Israel. The reason they are attacking the West is not because we are Christians but because we are attacking them. Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism etc all have wonderful teachings and practices that give many billions of law abiding and peaceful people huge comfort. The problem always comes however if we accept all teachings and passages without question. In reality I do not believe that GHod who ever you believe him to be wants you to give up your enquiring mind. In fact several religions including Islam and Christianity warn adherents to guard against false prophets.

Very few people do that. Even the violent extremists will ignore some passages of their holy books.

The bible has been quite accurately described as "the big book of multiple choice". Whatever moral thoughts you have you'll find support for it by interpreting the texts the way you want. Some might say "so what"? Well, now you have it on GHod's authority that you're right about this moral issue, that's part of the problem at the very least.

Research has showed using brain imaging techniques that people have pretty much identical activation in their brain when answering what they think and what they believe GHod thinks on a given issue. Asked what their neighbour thinks their brain activation is significantly different.

Believing that something is dogmatically true because GHod is just about the worst starting point for an actual honest moral discussion or evaluation. It's the ultimate "the ends justify the means" argument stopper. Within that worldview anything can make sense. Priests are raping children? Yeah, that's bad. But even worse would be if this hurts the church and thus fewer people follow the true word of GHod and gets into heaven. After all their eternal soul is at stake here. Is even a single lost follower worth justice for these children when what's being risked is eternity for a soul? Perhaps not. Perhaps better if we sweep this under the rug. Oh, we risk that the priest keeps doing it? Well... Yeah. That's bad, but remember the bit about eternity. There is no limit to how flawed your moral reasoning can get with religion. Evidence doesn't matter. It's faith, belief without reason. And it's dangerous in itself.

 

[braineclipse]

I agree, I am not a religious person by no means but those who say the end of religion would mean the end of conflict are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Has anyone actually claimed that in this thread or on this site then? Any prominant atheists or agnostics you know of that makes this claim?

If not, what are you actually trying to say?

 

[parklane1]

Has anyone actually claimed that in this thread or on this site then? Any prominant atheists or agnostics you know of that makes this claim?

If not, what are you actually trying to say?

Are you really telling me that they have not been posts in here that suggest getting rid of religion would be a good way to go?

 

[scaramanga]

I agree, I am not a religious person by no means but those who say the end of religion would mean the end of conflict are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Are you really telling me that they have not been posts in here that suggest getting rid of religion would be a good way to go?

Is your issue with people that claim ending religion will end war or with people that claim ending religion is a good thing in its own right?

Because only one of those things has been done in this thread and those two posts of yours seem to conflate the two.

 

[Craig_J]

I agree, I am not a religious person by no means but those who say the end of religion would mean the end of conflict are living in cloud cuckoo land.

I don't think anyone truly believes it would be the end of all conflict, but it would certainly decrease the number of unnecessary deaths in the world. People killing others is always terrible, but even more so when it's done in the name of something they have no evidence for.

It doesn't matter to me whether you're killing people because of weapons of mass destruction you have no evidence of (see Tony Blair) or whether you're doing it because of an almighty powerful being that can't be observed because they are conveniently placed outside the realms of existence. Killing people because of superstition or anything that can't be 100% documented is a terrible waste of human potential and causes a great deal of unnecessary suffering.

And sadly once you say your religion is the one true, pure method of living life and appeasing your maker there will always, always be fundamentalists trying to win themselves a free ticket to the after life.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Are you really telling me that they have not been posts in here that suggest getting rid of religion would be a good way to go?

It would be a good way to go, no actually a great way to go. It would not end wars, just cut down the amount, a bit like how not smoking cuts your chances of getting cancer but you can still get cancer even if you do not smoke.

 

[DTA]

What does the size of his (twitter) following tell us though? (If we assume it's ISIS bullcrap)

If this was a guy with 1000 followers I think he could be ignored. There are nutters everywhere... But when that many people seem to care what he says is he part of the fringe? Or is he part of something much larger than that?

This doesn't give you cause for concern at all? 13 million people follow this guy. I assume most of them claiming to belong to a religion with the same name as yours...

It is a cause for concern yeah, i cant argue with that (assuming its Isis like bullcrap). But again the way to defeat him and his views and those of his ilk is not to ridicule the 99% of people that dont follow him its to change the minds of those that do by showing how flawed his arguments are and how it doesnt fit into the religion that they are supposed to be following.

And how hard is that? Thats a question by the way.
I read the Koran once over 20 years and i can tell you three things just from memory that means according to the koran that abhorant things like the paris attack would never be justified within Islam (im going to paraphrase here)

1.killing one innocent is like killing the whole of humanity
2. No one that commits sucide will be allowed in to heaven
3. When you live in foriegn land you abide by their rules.

Someone who knows much more about it, can find much more and im guessing just off the top of their head.

Im going off into tangents here, so excuse that.

But how does someone like that get that amount of followers? Who are his financial backers? Why are we not backing moderates from within the muslim community that will challenge his views from a position of knowledge? Would that be another way to defeat Isis and the ilk?

 

[scaramanga]

It would be a good way to go, no actually a great way to go. It would not end wars, just cut down the amount, a bit like how not smoking cuts your chances of getting cancer but you can still get cancer even if you do not smoke.

Chich, I can see why you've been chosen to manage people. You have a way of explaining things in a very simple way - something I often struggle with.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Chich, I can see why you've been chosen to manage people. You have a way of explaining things in a very simple way - something I often struggle with.

Im fcuking brilliant me.

Was at the England under 21 match tonight at the Amex, wooo now that was even more depressing then religion, I am not over acting when I say not one English player looked even average. Reckon our under 21's would beat england under 21's. I know I broke the rule and spoke about football in random.

 

[DTA]

It would be a good way to go, no actually a great way to go. It would not end wars, just cut down the amount, a bit like how not smoking cuts your chances of getting cancer but you can still get cancer even if you do not smoke.

If you see religion as a tool, lets say a hammer.you can use a hammer for good (making things) or for bad (a weapon to hit people with). If a hammer never existed people would use a screwdriver again for good or bad, and as hammers never existed screwdrivers would be used twice as much.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

If you see religion as a tool, lets say a hammer.you can use a hammer for good (making things) or for bad (a weapon to hit people with). If a hammer never existed people would use a screwdriver again for good or bad, and as hammers never existed screwdrivers would be used twice as much.

You see people often fall back on the whole but a lot of people do good in the name of religion. Well you do not have to be religious to give to charity, i donate each year money and time to the Lifeboat association and money to my local hospice and also money to help train guide dogs. If it is because of religion your doing charity then that is deeply troubling. I give to these charities because I feel they deserve my time and help and money. I am not doing it cos a guy on a cloud tells me if I dont I will not get into heaven or fcuk virigins(no point in the virgins anyway as my penis is big)