Paris

[DTA]

What do you think the Americans were running from? Why do you think they were so scared?

Do you think the Iranians wanted to tickle them?

To misunderstant hundreds of years of geopolitical maneuvering and the results and influnces on situations like this its understandable.

Not everyone has the same knowledge and the same ability to apply that knowledge.

To willfully misinterpret a ben aflic film is farcical, if you can't see that you are either dumb or dangerous.... I would pick the latter in your case, and you would as well

 

[DTA]

Again and most especially for the bolded bits... =D> =D>

Thank you.

 

[DTA]

DTA, too many great posts to quote but I agree with a lot of your points.

Thank you

 

[AuroRaman]

I am sure the drawings were offensive to Muslims granted, there are a number of Islamic views of the western world although not on paper that offend me, but I don't go round wielding a gun and shooting Muslims.

I haven't personally seen them, but I read in an article that jihadist websites are filled with 'artwork' depicting images that would be incredibly offensive to those of Jewish, Christian and Catholic faith. Some of the literature that is out there and quotes from Islamic moderates and extremists against Western civilisation is hypocrisy of the highest order.

I do hold the belief that can be considered 'far right' but to me makes sense. If you have emigrated to a Westernised nation and actively criticise and look to force your beliefs on its citizens, or indeed if you are a citizen of the nation and feel its values and way of life is not conducive to your beliefs, you have the freedom to leave. That is the beauty of living in a secular, modern society. No-one will stop you. But if you look to extreme measures to enforce your beliefs, openly criticise and spread hate (yes Anjem Choudary, that includes you) there is going to be a big problem.

Thankfully, and statistically it is a factual observation, the vast majority of those that do emigrate are looking for a 'better life' and enhance the society they move into. There is a problem with young citizens being brainwashed into radical action within their home nation that seriously needs to be tackled. That isn't exclusive to Muslims but there is no point *****-footing around the fact that as of the present, Islam is under intense media and political scrutiny due to recent (as in the last 20 years) activities of extremists.

 

[Grays_1890]

Your wrong.... But maybe that ain't your fault maybe the media don't broadcast it as such.

If we are bringing Media into play a number of Islamic based media, Iran being an example are offering a different level of reaction to the shootings, rather than condemning the shootings they have chosen to question the drawings. Now I am in no way saying they are praising the shootings but it doesn't seem that the whole of Islam is united against terrorism within its own ranks here.

And I will say again, regardless of having a singular representative OR many councils on which multiple heads sit, if this prolific number of atrocities are going to come to an end its Islam that needs to clean up the religion from within. Its not just a one way fight between East and West.

And lets not again kid ourselves that my post is a reaction, in my lifetime there has been scores and scores of terrorist attacks in the name of Islam, its time something drastic happened from with their religion that stopped hundreds and thousands of innocent people being murdered.

This piece sums it up for me:

The majority of scholars and the faithful say Islam is no more inherently violent than other religions. But some Muslims — most notably the president of Egypt — argue that the contemporary understanding of their religion is infected with justifications for violence, requiring the government and its official clerics to correct the teaching of Islam.

“It is unbelievable that the thought we hold holy pushes the Muslim community to be a source of worry, fear, danger, murder and destruction to all the world,” President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi of Egypt lamented last week in a speech to the clerics of the official religious establishment. “You need to stand sternly,” he told them, calling for no less than “a religious revolution.”

So the next time the heads of all GCC states meet at some HUGE congress in somewhere similar to the Emirates Palace (I know Islam extends outside the GCC) or the Arab world leaders meet for their annual summit I would expect how each member state is going to deal with Islam in order to assist in the fight against the crimes being committed in the name of their religion.

 

[scaramanga]

Scared? Can you remind me how many times the US has invaded Iran, and how many times they have invaded Western nations?

That's not what was being discussed - DTA was trying to deny that the Iranians were trying to kill the Americans in the film Fargo. They clearly were.

As for invasions - I'm not really a fan of moral relativism.

 

[LutonSpurs]

As much as you cannot blame Judaism for the actions of extreme zionists who think its ok to kill because GHod promised them some land, you cannot blame islam for Al Qaeda and ISIS type terorrists who think they are fulfilling gods duty by killling cartoonists or kids in schools in Pakistan.

The extremists need dealing with. The Muslim community needs to do more to stop extremist mindset but one of the main places where these mindsets develop is online. That is a difficult one, who stops the kid who watches hate filled videos online and decides to do some crazy action after this?

 

[scaramanga]

I have at no point suggested understanding the gunmens cause or justified it. I was pushing to a separate debate of what is offensive and what is not.



My point is that racism was not illegal or frowned upon a few decades ago and is still common in some places, with time the lines around what is acceptable and what isn't has changed. the debate is on-going and the general mindset is evolving. I do not think the outside world should be held accountable to any faiths laws if they don't want to be. My point is that there could be a better understanding of different cultures and why they find things offensive.

again i re-iterate, I dislike a lot of the cartoons but I choose not to look at them. That is my right to be offended done. And I do believe I have that right.

Racism, sexism, homophobia, etc are bad things because they ridicule something that a person has no choice over.

Religion is open to ridicule because it is the choice of a believer to close their minds and intentionally become a godtard.

 

[LutonSpurs]

Racism, sexism, homophobia, etc are bad things because they ridicule something that a person has no choice over.

Religion is open to ridicule because it is the choice of a believer to close their minds and intentionally become a godtard.

Fair point. As in I can see why they are different.

 

[AuroRaman]

That's not what was being discussed - DTA was trying to deny that the Iranians were trying to kill the Americans in the film Fargo. They clearly were.

As for invasions - I'm not really a fan of moral relativism.

Apologies, I took your comment in isolation.

I'm not sure I understand the second bit, is it relevant? Educate me

 

[Grays_1890]

As much as you cannot blame Judaism for the actions of extreme zionists who think its ok to kill because GHod promised them some land, you cannot blame islam for Al Qaeda and ISIS type terorrists who think they are fulfilling gods duty by killling cartoonists or kids in schools in Pakistan.

The extremists need dealing with. The Muslim community needs to do more to stop extremist mindset but one of the main places where these mindsets develop is online. That is a difficult one, who stops the kid who watches hate filled videos online and decides to do some crazy action after this?

I don't blame Islam at all but as you say more should be done, as in my post at least the Egyptian leader has taken a lead to say so. Islam has a responsibility to their religion, these actions undertaken are done so under their name is not their fault but its their problem to correct.....

 

[scaramanga]

To misunderstant hundreds of years of geopolitical maneuvering and the results and influnces on situations like this its understandable.

Not everyone has the same knowledge and the same ability to apply that knowledge.

To willfully misinterpret a ben aflic film is farcical, if you can't see that you are either dumb or dangerous.... I would pick the latter in your case, and you would as well

I choose not to agree with the interpretation of a person who was involved in the creation of the film Pearl Harbour - just think about that.

I personally think that Iran had a good deal out of "western" involvement - Affleck doesn't. That doesn't surprise me, he's one of those arty types for whom it's fashionable to criticise his own government. I like the fact that people like him exist to hold our governments to account, I just think he's wrong.

There should be some kind of painful retribution made against him for Pearl Harbour though.

 

[scaramanga]

Apologies, I took your comment in isolation.

I'm not sure I understand the second bit, is it relevant? Educate me

Justifying atrocities by one group of people because other atrocities were committed by other people - just doesn't work for me.

Any invasion on the basis of religion is wrong - no exception.

 

[scaramanga]

As much as you cannot blame Judaism for the actions of extreme zionists who think its ok to kill because GHod promised them some land, you cannot blame islam for Al Qaeda and ISIS type terorrists who think they are fulfilling gods duty by killling cartoonists or kids in schools in Pakistan.

The extremists need dealing with. The Muslim community needs to do more to stop extremist mindset but one of the main places where these mindsets develop is online. That is a difficult one, who stops the kid who watches hate filled videos online and decides to do some crazy action after this?

I think you can blame all those religions for what happens. The only people that are able to permanently stop their more extreme followers are the members of those religions. All of them to some extent gain from extremist wings because it makes their position seem a little less ridiculous.

 

[AuroRaman]

Justifying atrocities by one group of people because other atrocities were committed by other people - just doesn't work for me.

Any invasion on the basis of religion is wrong - no exception.

Right. That definitely wasn't what I was trying to portray in my post. And now I'm even more confused. You mention invasion, I asked how many times Iran has invaded a Western country, for religious purposes or otherwise? I can't see the connection to moral relativism but maybe I don't understand it enough.

I believe any invasion on the basis of religion and enforced control for monetary and military gain, for example to gain a foothold in a region rich in resource, is also wrong - no exception.

 

[scaramanga]

Right. That definitely wasn't what I was trying to portray in my post. And now I'm even more confused. You mention invasion, I asked how many times Iran has invaded a Western country, for religious purposes or otherwise? I can't see the connection to moral relativism but maybe I don't understand it enough.

OK, not invasions but certainly attacks on lives of innocents as we were discussing.

I believe any invasion on the basis of religion and enforced control for monetary and military gain, for example to gain a foothold in a region rich in resource, is also wrong - no exception.

I agree on religion, but not really the rest of that sentence. I think there are all kinds of reasons why countries go to war, and to simplify any of them to one of those suggestions is inaccurate.

 

[AuroRaman]

OK, not invasions but certainly attacks on lives of innocents as we were discussing.



I agree on religion, but not really the rest of that sentence. I think there are all kinds of reasons why countries go to war, and to simplify any of them to one of those suggestions is inaccurate.

I wasn't trying to simplify 'any' war as there has been occasions where war has been unavoidable and in fact the only solution. Fair points all round though.

 

[We are Tottenham]

There are not currently regular atrocities being carried out globally by Christian/other religions against non-believers precisely targeting things that they consider to be against their religion are there though? The fact that the crusades happened 100s of years ago is irrelevant. Why can't you see this?

Christianity used that name in past centuries for there own power..thats in the past..the crusades were in the past...not 2015.
and the Hitler holocaust had little to do with religion as far as I can see. The state murdered the jews...Hitler hated the Jews ..not the church as such.

 

[Baleforce]

nothing is irrelevant, past is prologue

 

[Grays_1890]

nothing is irrelevant, past is prologue

So born under the banner of Christianity or perceived Christianity have to live in regret for things that happened centuries before they were born? I'm not sure I agree with that.