OT: What next for Harry?

[Wriggly]

Hi,

I joined this forum a few weeks ago. I intended to post every so often.

What has put me off from doing that, is the unnecessary arguing and hyper-analysing every single post.

Rgds

Tell someone who gives a toss.

 

[africanspurs]

Hi,

Please don't misunderstand - it does appear to be an interesting forum, albeit one lacking what I'd perceive to be a cohesive debate. There are lots of arguments, many of which seem historical, biased or irrelevant; all of which comes across as very intimidating, from an immediate outsider anyway. I've no idea about the history of the forum, so can't compare 'now with then'.

Rgds

i wouldnt worry about those tbh, its underlying issues between factions.

if you do decide to come back i would just not take sides on those particular situations

you really do seem polite and willing to engage with us on a respectful / well balanced and non patronising level

hopefully we get to see you some more. if not then thats our loss and your gain

 

[africanspurs]

For me the issue is not being a Harry fan or foe, its the fact that as soon as someone decides to categorise you as such they start arguing with an extreme and polarised version of you and what you post. Every comment is subject to not being read, in context of discussion, but read in context of what the reader wants to see/what they attribute to you as a charicature of your stance.

My views on Harry were simple, I thought he was good, I thought he could have done better, I thought he had peaked.

And African, one thing you dont seem to consider in your stance on AVB (or on treating AVB the same was as Harry was as some tit for tat exercise) is that Harry had 4 full seasons (save 8 games) to establish himself and develop that side. To build and evolve it.

For me he failed to play a slightly longer game and ultimately paid the price for his expensive short term view (well described by Jordinho).

Season 1 - I do honestly believe any decent manager would have dragged us out of that with relative ease. It wasnt a perfect squad but it was a good one, and the consequent £40m splurge in January was more than enough to put it straight. That said, Harry exceeded my expectations. I also found it very refreshing that he was spotting and fixing obvious holes in the squad we had been screaming for for some time (Palacios for example). Although I was unsure of buys like Keane, I had faith in Harry.

Season 2 - Whats not to like? Harry was outstanding, simply put. He instilled a winning mentality in that team. We started picking off our rivals. Our defense set records, and we started to play really good stuff. When it came to the last handdful of must win games I actually had faith we would do it. Incredible season.

Season 3 - The CL run was excitement end to end, with some magnificent results - though I did feel we were naive at times. I was overall delighted with the fact we took to it though, we werent overcome by the occasion and we did ourselves proud. In the league I began to have concerns, and the late season collapse cemented them. I started to fear we were over reliant on certain players and lacked longer term objectivity. That summer I raised these concerns. Never said to sack Harry, but that I wanted to see more from him - having had at this point 3 seasons this team should have started to be moulded for the future as well as now, to consolidate its new status.

Season 4 - Done to death. Ultimately a failure in terms of the position we put ourselves in. Disappointed it took buys on August 31st to have the team working properly. Delighted with the consequent form. Disappointed at the lack of established playing style/ability to cope without certain players. Pleased we managed through Redknapps surgery without incident. Pleased we did ok through his court case. Disgusted with how we collapsed when the FA came knocking. 4th is always going to be a success for Spurs, but in this case it was a disappointing one.

And then came this summer. I have long maintained this summer would be busy and that the following season would be transitional (to a degree at least) because of the nature of the squad Harry had composed. This was my greatest concern, actually look at what was left after 4 seasons and 7 windows.

I was at this point convinced we needed better than Harry, but even then when pressed couldnt say "Sack Harry" because I couldnt follow it up with "And replace him with....". Not in any way that the argument would stack up. I think this is because despite the fact I felt Redknapp had run his course he had done so well it would take something pretty special to replace him.

Levy took the choice before I could comitt. I believe these things played a large part, but also that Harry was the architect of his own downfall through his power plays over the contract and hypocrisy over the slump.

So along comes AVB. There is a lot to like about him, there are things to hold concern over. I dont think its unfair that people have reservations. I do think though that he is getting a really rough ride on here, not because of 'reservations' but because he had the audacity to replace Harry (or Saint Harry, in some quarters, such as the polarised arguments have somehow deified him for some) and also because of an exaggerated view of his "catastrophic" Chelsea stint. I dont think he is getting support right now because people are holding onto anymosity over Redknapp, which while maybe understandable is just really really sad.

AVB is the manager of Tottenham Hotspur. The club we support, or at least should do. How about just supporting him for a while, cheer the team on, build them up when they are down, use all the positivity possible to will them to results? Or, if that isnt possible, how about just NOT being a groaner, a booer and a negative influence?

Its far to early to know how well, or not, AVB will do - but it is never to early to influence it - for better or worse.

Ultimately his Spurs career is 3 games old (with an incomplete squad). Harrys was 4 seasons. If you want to treat AVB as people treated Harry, try starting at the beginnig when people were sceptical but were won over (as a manager, if not a man).

you do realise that my comments arent directed at you, any time i do do that you know its just friendly cheeky baiting. we've discussed at length via PM our views on Harry and i think some here would be surprised what i said in some of those

the ONLY thing i would be serious about with regards to your comments on harry is that he can pull the trigger on transfers. i dont agree with this..i think there is more going on there than that...MUCH more.
and i am starting to think , even though previoulsy i agreed with you to a significant extent (but not fully), that Harry would have done better if he had better players to use. or a more complete squad to carry on his momentum

everything else is directed in general traffic that , from my perspective, appears to be anti harry.

one thing though i will say..is that harry was judged HARSHLY when he took over...most people didnt want him long term or even at all...and he actually won the fans over....almost IMMEDIATELY. and not only did he get us out of it..but he got us out of it in style and top 3 form.....finishing in 8th place when we were 2 points from 8 games and bottom at xmas (i tasted some bile in that one LOL. wash my mouth)

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

=D>

Everything I tried to say earlier, but in a lot more words.

And I know there are those who will disagree with this post, but it is a well written, well thought out piece. No forcing of opinion down others throats, no shouting down, just an honest viewpoint.
Well done.

(does that sound patronizing?....sorry.....:-#)

It was your post that lead me to put it up.

I should add, had Harry got his 3 year contract and stayed on - I would want nothing but his absolute success right now.

I would have reservations, as I did. I would voice them. I would hope to see more of a system embedded in the side for continuity, I would want to see more strategy in transfers for longevity.

However, ultimately, all I would want for is to see Harry put together the best team and form possible and learn from prior mistakes. I would support him.

I would expect, also, that he wouldnt be doing so well right now. That he would have had a huge amount of work to do over the summer and that right now we would be bedding in a lot of new players and ideas. That was always an inevitability regradless of who was in charge, given the squad that finished the season.

I believe those that are "pro Harry" arent affording this point of view to AVB. Which is a realy shame.

At the end of the day, the way I see it is that whatever happened before cannot be changed - we have a new manager now and he deserves support from the club and its fans, and all the will possible to help him succeed. And thats not "Pro AVB" thats "Pro SPURS"

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

you do realise that my comments arent directed at you, any time i do do that you know its just friendly cheeky baiting. we've discussed at length via PM our views on Harry and i think some here would be surprised what i said in some of those

the ONLY thing i would be serious about with regards to your comments on harry is that he can pull the trigger on transfers. i dont agree with this..i think there is more going on there than that...MUCH more.
and i am starting to think , even though previoulsy i agreed with you to a significant extent (but not fully), that Harry would have done better if he had better players to use. or a more complete squad to carry on his momentum

everything else is directed in general traffic that , from my perspective, appears to be anti harry.

one thing though i will say..is that harry was judged HARSHLY when he took over...most people didnt want him long term or even at all...and he actually won the fans over....almost IMMEDIATELY. and not only did he get us out of it..but he got us out of it in style and top 3 form.....finishing in 8th place when we were 2 points from 8 games and bottom at xmas (i tasted some bile in that one LOL. wash my mouth)

The only comment in there really aimed at you was the last line about treating them the same. Seems to me you are trying to treat AVB now as Harry was treated after 4 seasons, I dont think that it fair. I realise you have a bee in your bonnett about this lately and certainly seem a lot more aggressive/prickly in your posting style - but I have to call out when I dont think its fair.

The rest was response to a culmination of reading this thread, a bit vague rather than aimed at you if you know what I mean?

There is an element that NEVER liked Redknapp and never will. Same with most managers I guess, and to be expected with someone of Harrys character. It was a real minority though, IMO.

There were plenty who didnt want him. My immediate reaction was "What the hell did we do that for!?" but I quickly calmed to seeing he did good work at Pompey and with better players could be a real prospect with us.

I think he "converted" a lot of people early on. And almost all those that werent yet followed the season afterwards!

Should we not afford AVB the same opportunity? After Chelsea there will of course be those not sold on the idea. What is the best course of action? Jump on every half truth and rumour to berate him? Over his initial 3 games over analyse everything and conclude "I knew it would be a failure!" or instead support, watch, wait and see how things go over a reasonable amount of time. Never know, he might well convert a few...

 

[africanspurs]

The only comment in there really aimed at you was the last line about treating them the same. Seems to me you are trying to treat AVB now as Harry was treated after 4 seasons, I dont think that it fair. I realise you have a bee in your bonnett about this lately and certainly seem a lot more aggressive/prickly in your posting style - but I have to call out when I dont think its fair.

The rest was response to a culmination of reading this thread, a bit vague rather than aimed at you if you know what I mean?

There is an element that NEVER liked Redknapp and never will. Same with most managers I guess, and to be expected with someone of Harrys character. It was a real minority though, IMO.

There were plenty who didnt want him. My immediate reaction was "What the hell did we do that for!?" but I quickly calmed to seeing he did good work at Pompey and with better players could be a real prospect with us.

I think he "converted" a lot of people early on. And almost all those that werent yet followed the season afterwards!

Should we not afford AVB the same opportunity? After Chelsea there will of course be those not sold on the idea. What is the best course of action? Jump on every half truth and rumour to berate him? Over his initial 3 games over analyse everything and conclude "I knew it would be a failure!" or instead support, watch, wait and see how things go over a reasonable amount of time. Never know, he might well convert a few...

but i'm not saying AVB out though. i jus think that he should be scrutinised just as much as Harr always was. Plus things that led people to say that Harry should be sacked...if AVB does them too , then hey it should be open season. and that my friend has nothing to do with 4 years, well maybe a little..and everything to do with fairness...which is kind of odd cause it wouldnt be fair on AVB ...but it would be fair in regards to whats good for the goose and gander type thing

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

4 years is everything to do with it.

Redknapp had 4 years to mould that side into any image he saw fit. He had a lot of success along the way. After 4 seasons I dont think it is unfair to have raised expectations.

AVB has had 3 games. Disappointing but not disasterous games. Should we judge him as we did Redknapp? At this point - no bloody way. Down the line, when he has had time to effect his changes on the side? Absolutely.

Fair is fair.

Harry came in, had his sceptics, and had the chance to win them over. AVB should have exactly that.

Judging AVB by the same criteria as Redknapp last season is frankly ridiculous IMHO.

This seems much more about the whole "pro Harry" "anti Harry" rubbish that near killed this board than football IMO.

 

[africanspurs]

4 years is everything to do with it.

Redknapp had 4 years to mould that side into any image he saw fit. He had a lot of success along the way. After 4 seasons I dont think it is unfair to have raised expectations.

AVB has had 3 games. Disappointing but not disasterous games. Should we judge him as we did Redknapp? At this point - no bloody way. Down the line, when he has had time to effect his changes on the side? Absolutely.

Fair is fair.

Harry came in, had his sceptics, and had the chance to win them over. AVB should have exactly that.

Judging AVB by the same criteria as Redknapp last season is frankly ridiculous IMHO.

This seems much more about the whole "pro Harry" "anti Harry" rubbish that near killed this board than football IMO.

but why shouldnt we judge AVb just like harry was being judged when he first came here? and fo instance if bale coming off the flank considered by many to be a move that proved Harry to be clueless.....why shouldnt AVB be measured under the same magnifying glass

and redknapp had 4 seasons to do his thing..shave 8 games . but in the 2nd season he got 4th. you dont think its unfair to raise expectations based on the good work of a good manager and when the manager doesnt meet the criteria tha he himself set (oh actually sorry i think he did. 4th was the target and we got it) then its fair to dismiss him?

heh, this isnt going to get resolved cause what you want is for me to follow your idea of fairness. and IMO the idea of showing the door to someone that got you to where you are just cause of a few months of poor play is not fair in the slightest. yet you say fairness in that we shouldnt judge AVB harshly when he does things that redknapp wouldnt get away with. I find that heavily one sided

harry redknapp won his sceptics over almost straight away, maybe AVB should do the same....i must say though, he's running out of easy games to do it in. the first game and a half under AVB was very promising.....the half was poor. that game against norwhich was poisonous.....no clue what we wanted to do or where we were going.....just side to side and predictable...and couldnt even track them ........sigh. aye.

(this next bit here is me being unfair to AVB)
it was up to Harry to get people off his back and he did it early....he maintained it and created followers. AVB should be given an easy start for what reason? this is a multi billion pound industry , that man gets paid millions, he better get out there and get some results sharpish. babying him cause he's the new guy? puh-lease....people pay good money to watch us and you're rewarding them with what exactly? get it sorted or you should hit the road

now THAT is unfair.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

What is fair, IMO, is that AVB is actually given a chance - same as Harry was. Something I dont believe is really happening.

If you disagree that is your right. Ill leave it there.

 

[africanspurs]

What is fair, IMO, is that AVB is actually given a chance - same as Harry was. Something I dont believe is really happening.

If you disagree that is your right. Ill leave it there.

cool dude

yes i do disagree , i think many people are giving him a chance to prove himself. no one is saying he should go...just calling him on poor performances. normally i wouldnt and would give him time, but like you said...i'm reacting / acting with different motives

 

[indianspur]

What is fair, IMO, is that AVB is actually given a chance - same as Harry was. Something I dont believe is really happening.

If you disagree that is your right. Ill leave it there.

Redknapp had a great start to his time at Spurs...on the back of coming in with 2pts from 8 games, after the Bolton game his first 3 games were the 4-4 at Arse, 2-1 win at home to Liverpool and a 2-1 win away to Emirates Marketing Project. Somehow he earned the right to be given all the chances after that beginning. For AVB things havent gone so well at all, and against more inferior opposition, as well as having a full pre season behind him. Thats why there seems to be more pressure on him right now

AVB needs wins and that will buy him time. Im sure he expected criticism if we got off to a bad start. IMO the transfer shenanigans of Levy and co have fcuked everything up for AVB (sorry to be so blunt)

 

[Jurgen the German]

What is fair, IMO, is that AVB is actually given a chance - same as Harry was. Something I dont believe is really happening.

If you disagree that is your right. Ill leave it there.

I was at the first home game, he got a very good reception when he was introduced before the game so it's unfair to say the pro Harry people aren't giving him a fair crack at the whip, maybe some aren't, but I can only speak for myself when I say I want him to succeed.

People only got disgruntled at the end of the West Brom with the result and the team's overall performance. Booing isn't new to Spurs fans, I could name plenty of games during the last few seasons where the home fans booed the team off at half time and full time.

There was always going to be a section of fans who opposed the move to bring AVB in. And sadly, they were always going to get on his back if the team got off to a bad start considering our success in the past 3 seasons.

I actually think we will win this Sunday. This will help get some fans off his back.

 

[spursman17]

When are people going to give a manager some time rather than want instant success.

Harry took over a team at the time that had hit rock bottom and the only way was up imo as Ramos was a poor choice with him language limitation.

AVB has also taken over a team that gave away a 10 point lead for 3rd end of last season and things were not as rosey as people are making out prior to Redknapps depature.

New players have come in, Modric has gone and we did not get all our signing during the transfers due to a saturated market encouraged by teams like City, Chelsea and United offering silly amounts of money over the years.

I think we should give him time, see if he can get the team playing as we expect after a long run then we can review things.

We are 3 games in this season for crying out loud.

 

[thfcsteff]

:lol:

have to say this made me laugh

thanks man

And me! =D>

 

[billyiddo]

excellent posting Nayim the past couple of pages fella =D>

 

[parklane1]

When are people going to give a manager some time rather than want instant success.

Harry took over a team at the time that had hit rock bottom and the only way was up imo as Ramos was a poor choice with him language limitation.

AVB has also taken over a team that gave away a 10 point lead for 3rd end of last season and things were not as rosy as people are making out prior to Redknapp's departure.

New players have come in, Modric has gone and we did not get all our signing during the transfers due to a saturated market encouraged by teams like City, Chelsea and United offering silly amounts of money over the years.

I think we should give him time, see if he can get the team playing as we expect after a long run then we can review things.

We are 3 games in this season for crying out loud.

Some very good and sensible points in your post=D>.

 

[spitshine]

You've hit a vital, vital point in this discussion mate.


Last season because of where we are going into February, the expectations were greater than 4th. They were 3rd minimum. And maybe even the FA Cup! So that is why finishing 4th was a disappointment.

I understand peoples disappointment in that respect. Hypothetically speaking, if we were say languishing mid table in Jan and then had a tremendous run to 4th,
would your view alter on last seasons performance?

 

[africanspurs]

I understand peoples disappointment in that respect. Hypothetically speaking, if we were say languishing mid table in Jan and then had a tremendous run to 4th,
would your view alter on last seasons performance?

of course it would

 

[billyiddo]

it would alter the perception of the season, but it would still have raised the question whether to replace the manager or not, imv

 

[thfcsteff]

You've hit a vital, vital point in this discussion mate.


Last season because of where we are going into February, the expectations were greater than 4th. They were 3rd minimum. And maybe even the FA Cup! So that is why finishing 4th was a disappointment.

I understand peoples disappointment in that respect. Hypothetically speaking, if we were say languishing mid table in Jan and then had a tremendous run to 4th,
would your view alter on last seasons performance?

Absolutely. Although to be fair mate, I had us down at the start of last season as dark horses for the title based on the fact we might not have had the players Emirates Marketing Project had, but we had the togetherness and a settled-look about us which I thought augured well. When I knew Modders was staying it sealed my expectations. So perhaps mine were a bit too high (I had taken the previous season's slump as something we would learn from/written it of as Harry preparing for the trial which was to come).

But just to directly answer you, I absolutely would've felt differently.