***OMT: Tottenham Hotspur vs. Fulham *** Sunday, December 1, 1:30 pm UK

[glorygloryeze]

I think Kane would have stayed if certain promises given to him were kept. For instance building a team that was a serious prospect at challenging for honours.

Kane had turned 30. Unless we were in the CL and paying absolutely top wages to buy someone like Mbappe or Vincius Junior there was no way Kane was staying to not play in Europe with us last season. If he did, he'd certainly not have signed a new deal and would likely have left the enxt year on a free. Do yoiu honestly think Levy/ENIC would have allowed that?

He had a handshake deal with Levy and Levy lied to him. Simple as that. It's no wonder he left as soon as he could and the fact that he went to Munich shows what a class act he is and the respect he still has for the fans. In football terms it's nothing short of criminal to lose a generational talent such as Kane.

Kane gave his best years to us. It's down to us (and partly him) that it wasn't utilised to make the club more successful.

 

[Batspur]

Kane imo stayed a lot longer than he would have done pre Levy or early on under Levy.

From the one who shall not be named to Sheringham, Berbatov, Bale and Modric. Our best players have been leaving us sooner or later because we're not an elite club.

It's definitely not all thanks to Levy that Kane stayed as long as he did, but had we not developed as a club as we've done under Levy I think Kane would have left earlier.

Kane is mostly a success story for the club. The next step is making the next success story even more successful.

I think that's a reasonable and sensible viewpoint but the fan in me is frustrated we don't move on to be at that level. The Arsenal/Liverpool etc level. There is nothing to stop us pushing on to that level apart from one person imo.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

No doubt. But any team seriously chasing European qualification has surely got to be looking for more than 2 points from that combination of games.

I agree but are there any teams with as many players missing who could do that? Look at City they are struggling. Its disappointing but understandable, I wish people would show some respect to our opponents, before every game we see confident predictions based on hope rather than reality and the subsequent outrage after a failure to meet expectations.

 

[braineclipse]

I think that's a reasonable and sensible viewpoint but the fan in me is frustrated we don't move on to be at that level. The Arsenal/Liverpool etc level. There is nothing to stop us pushing on to that level apart from one person imo.

This is probably more for the Levy thread.

But Levy has gotten us to the point that we can seemingly fairly consistently have a 100m ish net spend every season even without being in the CL.

That came too late to get the most out of our generational Kane. That's frustrating, and sad. As are some of Levy's other decisions. But for me Levy isn't holding us back. We have a very talented young squad with some great players and most likely will have the opportunity to spend well to strengthen on that in the years to come along with some of the younger players hopefully developing into quality players.

I think that's a pretty good place to be even though the short term of that is often frustrating.

 

[Mikey10]

I agree but are there any teams with as many players missing who could do that? Look at City they are struggling. Its disappointing but understandable, I wish people would show some respect to our opponents, before every game we see confident predictions based on hope rather than reality and the subsequent outrage after a failure to meet expectations.

Injuries are hitting us now: I'm not sure that was the case when we played Leicester, Palace or Brighton, though. Ipswich at home is as close to an easy game as any team will get in the PL.

Agree, though, in general. It's the same with the Europa. We had plenty on here saying we should rest players after the second game - now it's by no means for sure that we will qualify as one of the top 8 (for what it's worth, I think we will end up in the play-off round).

 

[braineclipse]

Injuries are hitting us now: I'm not sure that was the case when we played Leicester, Palace or Brighton, though. Ipswich at home is as close to an easy game as any team will get in the PL.

Agree, though, in general. It's the same with the Europa. We had plenty on here saying we should rest players after the second game - now it's by no means for sure that we will qualify as one of the top 8 (for what it's worth, I think we will end up in the play-off round).

I think the Fulham game illustrated quite clearly why we should have been resting players - and why Ange has mostly done so.

Ange had his options limited by injuries, but if that wasn't the case I would have wanted more rotation against Roma than we actually got.

 

[braineclipse]

Just to be clear I'm not saying we should play a PL team and EL team. I similarly want rotation for the Bournemouth game because playing mostly the same 11 as against Fulham against Bournemouth and then Chelsea looks like asking for exhausted performances and injuries.

 

[Kompakted]

I think that's a reasonable and sensible viewpoint but the fan in me is frustrated we don't move on to be at that level. The Arsenal/Liverpool etc level. There is nothing to stop us pushing on to that level apart from one person imo.

Interesting thing for me in potential defence of Levy is that he and Lewis came in and grew the club organically but I think it's likely that you could do some analysis and find that a number of things conspired against them so that despite the club being on a mostly upwards trajectory under their stewardship, on-field success in terms of silverware has been elusive and may continue to be elusive.

Abramovich's purchase and bankrolling of Chelsea was the first thing. Chelsea's place in the top 4 at our expense since then has been numerous. It is even arguable that we'd have possibly won the league title in 2016/17 if this hadn't happened.

City's purchase by ADUG is another factor that has materially limited any other club's ability to win silverware in subsequent years. Liverpool, Arsenal, Manchester Utd and, ironically, Chelsea have struggled to get a consistent look in since also.

FFP/sustainability rules are also hampering our prospects. I believe that in order to attempt to ring fence stadium development debt from impacting on the football team in the way that Arsenal's did, THFC group restructured so that the stadium and property portfolio is owned by a separate legal entity but what we are now possibly finding is that we will struggle to use the stadium revenue to "bank roll" the team as we are limited in terms of what a shareholder can put into the football club. So THFC FC are owned by TH Group which owns the stadium and events company but we can't easily just move the profits from that business to the football club anymore and can only spend mostly what the football club generates in revenue itself. We've tried to get around it by doing stuff like corporate finance (e.g. rights issuances and loans between group entities) but these are complex and costly transactions in terms of time, effort and legal/trabsaction fees.

It may be that they will eventually have to restructure the group again but nobody will do anything while City's charges are outstanding as they will determine the legal precedent for the application of FFP and PL sustainability rules. Until that's resolved a number of clubs including ourselves are treading water financially

 

[braineclipse]

Interesting thing for me in potential defence of Levy is that he and Lewis came in and grew the club organically but I think it's likely that you could do some analysis and find that a number of things conspired against them so that despite the club being on a mostly upwards trajectory under their stewardship, on-field success in terms of silverware has been elusive and may continue to be elusive.

Abramovich's purchase and bankrolling of Chelsea was the first thing. Chelsea's place in the top 4 at our expense since then has been numerous. It is even arguable that we'd have possibly won the league title in 2016/17 if this hadn't happened.

City's purchase by ADUG is another factor that has materially limited any other club's ability to win silverware in subsequent years. Liverpool, Arsenal, Manchester Utd and, ironically, Chelsea have struggled to get a consistent look in since also.

FFP/sustainability rules are also hampering our prospects. I believe that in order to attempt to ring fence stadium development debt from impacting on the football team in the way that Arsenal's did, THFC group restructured so that the stadium and property portfolio is owned by a separate legal entity but what we are now possibly finding is that we will struggle to use the stadium revenue to "bank roll" the team as we are limited in terms of what a shareholder can put into the football club. So THFC FC are owned by TH Group which owns the stadium and events company but we can't easily just move the profits from that business to the football club anymore and can only spend mostly what the football club generates in revenue itself. We've tried to get around it by doing stuff like corporate finance (e.g. rights issuances and loans between group entities) but these are complex and costly transactions in terms of time, effort and legal/trabsaction fees.

It may be that they will eventually have to restructure the group again but nobody will do anything while City's charges are outstanding as they will determine the legal precedent for the application of FFP and PL sustainability rules. Until that's resolved a number of clubs including ourselves are treading water financially

Don't know much about the finance side of that. But for sure what happened with Chelsea and City made our upwards trajectory seem less than it's been while also lessening it (potentially trophies and CL participation).

We're now in a situation where not qualifying for the CL is a disappointment, and a couple years of that disappointment will often get a manager fired (rightly or not).

At the start of Levy's time here even having the hopes of CL participation disappointingly not happen seemed like a long shot. I still remember lasagnagate. Frustrating as that was it was progress.

For sure were some rough years post Pochettino. But we now seem back on track with a good youth focused policy while also being able to sign some ready made starters. Let's see how far that can take us.

 

[mudshark]

What if he wins a pot?

 

[We are Tottenham]

I can't remember such an influx of new posters, how many is that this season?

its the russians..surely you know it...

 

[lurker of old]

we can seemingly have a 100m ish net spend every season even without being in the CL.
It may be that Kompakted has answered this, but I've been wondering what real benefit the theoretical cash cow of the new stadium has returned, in practice? Do we spend as much on wages as Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea? Do we have as big a transfer budget? What exactly is the financial benefit of the multi-purpose stadium? This questioning brought on my irritation that we don't have an experienced 3rd striker and can't afford the upgrade to a version of Timo who can score as well as assist. So I ask: what is the point of this multi-purpose stadium if we can't or won't use it to bankroll the team?

 

[We are Tottenham]

Son has not really suited Ange ball
Yep he has some goals
He also has some assists
But he should have a lot more goals and a lot more assists
He looks tired, lethargic and possibly injured again
He always always puts in 100% but if you can’t okay the game you’re always gonna struggle.
Son at his very best was still not great at controlling the ball. What he excelled at was his next move

I would always keep Son on depending on the circumstances. You can't expect him to run around like a 23 year old player. I said the same thing
about Bale when he came back. Some posters on here wanted him to run up and down like Michael Johnson for 90 mins!
what a waste he was under Jose lol..because........ he hardly ever played Bale but he still scored more goals than Kane per minutes played.

Anyway ..around and around we go on the carousel again..still ..we have some good new youngsters coming through though ...so in a couple of years everything will be hunky dory...
I'm sorry for being so negative at the moment about Spurs. [understatement about how I feel]..but we can't find an answer can we?

Is it the fans not getting behind the team enough at home! could be..I'm not so sure we are generating the old passion
of yesteryear at WHL. Away fans are generally very good .
I'm not blaming the new Stadium BTW I think it's Brill..
Is it time for Levy to hang up his boots...
Can we find new owners that have 100% interest in this club and take us forward...Anyway ...
Coys.................

 

[We are Tottenham]

What if he wins a pot?

He needs to smoke some....

 

[thfcsteff]

Nobody is taking it out of context, you literally said that you need to elite players per position to finish 4th/5th. We've done that multiple times and have never had 2 elite players per position, we've rarely had 1 per position never mind 2.

Right. Did you miss the bit where I mentioned the amount of football being played leading to more injuries/fatigue?
It's a fact.

 

[thfcsteff]

I think this is a very good point if I understand you correctly.

We need a squad of players that all fit the system well and are ready to do a good job in that system.

Mostly our strongest 11 does that (I have some question marks about the fit to the system for Son as well as Bissouma and Bentancur). We have strengthened our squad too in that regard, but still not at the point where we have the options we need. But we have players that can develop into becoming those players in quite a few positions.

Yup. This is further exacerbated by the amount of football! I think squads will have to get bigger and elite careers 2-3 years shorter the way things are going.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Interesting thing for me in potential defence of Levy is that he and Lewis came in and grew the club organically but I think it's likely that you could do some analysis and find that a number of things conspired against them so that despite the club being on a mostly upwards trajectory under their stewardship, on-field success in terms of silverware has been elusive and may continue to be elusive.

Abramovich's purchase and bankrolling of Chelsea was the first thing. Chelsea's place in the top 4 at our expense since then has been numerous. It is even arguable that we'd have possibly won the league title in 2016/17 if this hadn't happened.

City's purchase by ADUG is another factor that has materially limited any other club's ability to win silverware in subsequent years. Liverpool, Arsenal, Manchester Utd and, ironically, Chelsea have struggled to get a consistent look in since also.

FFP/sustainability rules are also hampering our prospects. I believe that in order to attempt to ring fence stadium development debt from impacting on the football team in the way that Arsenal's did, THFC group restructured so that the stadium and property portfolio is owned by a separate legal entity but what we are now possibly finding is that we will struggle to use the stadium revenue to "bank roll" the team as we are limited in terms of what a shareholder can put into the football club. So THFC FC are owned by TH Group which owns the stadium and events company but we can't easily just move the profits from that business to the football club anymore and can only spend mostly what the football club generates in revenue itself. We've tried to get around it by doing stuff like corporate finance (e.g. rights issuances and loans between group entities) but these are complex and costly transactions in terms of time, effort and legal/trabsaction fees.

It may be that they will eventually have to restructure the group again but nobody will do anything while City's charges are outstanding as they will determine the legal precedent for the application of FFP and PL sustainability rules. Until that's resolved a number of clubs including ourselves are treading water financially

I like the contrast of what your saying but the company structure thing is not how I’ve seen us set up
We’re in effect set up as THFC holdings with subsidiary companies feeding into that
The holding groups income is club revenues to spend under PSR
That’s how it was only 18 months ago when I read up on it
And I read up on it because people were saying there is separate property company
There is… but it’s part of the group of companies

 

[Bishop]

We have potential in oderbert and Moore (who I think will end up a 10) and literally no one else on the right now other than johnson
We have Werner who is hated by many but effective in this system
And richarlison who can play there but is made of glass it seems
I think we fox the left with a okayed delivering an output as much as Johnson and then we can look at who we bring in on the right
Son can still finish’s sometimes I’m sure
But his decision making in front of goal the last two games smacks to me of a player is past it and on the downward spiral
Said it in the match thread that it remind me of Hugo’s demise in his last season

I agree! This is why in the summer I was screaming about the need for two 1st team wingers.

 

[thfcsteff]

Nobody has two elite players for every position. Even City don't. Look at how they've fallen off a cliff since Rodri was injured. If you're them you can't buy another Rodri and expect them to be happy waiting for their chance from the bench. Same with Haaland, thet had to let Alvarez go in the summer because he wasnt willing to play second fiddle. They've also missed his goals this season. You'll never manage a squad where you don't have a drop off due to injuries/fixture congestion.

Errr...they spent what, 60 million on Phillips who was meant to be their back-up Rodri? They then brought Kovecic in when Phillips wasn't working out. They most certainly did try to recruit a Rodri backup. It failed. That's on their recruitment/Pep (the Philips thing is bizarre to me).

Alvarez was an outlier in terms of what's being discussed. He was never a Haaland sub; he's a different type of striker who demands a different style of play. They obviously thought that with Foden, Grealish, and Silva, they had enough to play their 'false 9' if Haaland was out.

I will say it again.
Football is in the middle of a shift. There has NEVER been the demand there is on squads that exists today. Many of these players are currently three years+ into 11 month seasons of average three games a week with more travel than ever. It is untenable to expect trophies from squads of the current size.

We will start to see larger squads for sure, and careers will be shorter and more intense unless we u-turn from where football is going.

Finally, when I say elite players in depth, let me be more specific. In the key positions, I think you can afford no drop off IF you want to win now. For us, that'd be keeper, 6, and wingbacks. I'd add wide l/r frontmen (wingers) too. Right now, we have elite backup for Romero, arguably for 6 (though I feel we will in the long run have to do better there if we want to push for the title) and we have elite backup for a wide position. All other areas are development.

Again, I am all in in development and patience, but it is clear much of our fan base says they are but then go apebrick at results like Sunday's. I hope Ange gets the time.

 

[thfcsteff]

Nobody is taking it out of context, you literally said that you need to elite players per position to finish 4th/5th. We've done that multiple times and have never had 2 elite players per position, we've rarely had 1 per position never mind 2.

Again (because it is important that if you disagree, you disagree with the actual opinion I have and not one you think you've seen)

I said...

<<Injuries are going to be more frequent due to the amount of football played. You need two players per position minimum, and in positions key to a style, they have to be elite/specific to the managers needs. IMO anyway.>>

Please note, I did NOT say 'two elite players' per position. ONLY in the areas of the team specific to Ange's style.

If you disagree with that, great, but it is different from what you have tagged me as saying.