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Bishop said:
Against Palace we looked equally blunt once Werner came on. Our problem was not the wide players, it was the press Palace exerted don us and our inability to play around that.

For all the roasting of the FB you think he does he rarely ever does anything productive with the ball, so yes we do have plenty of bad results and performances with him in the team because he isn't adding goals or assists. Which frankly as a wide attacker he has to do.

Aesthetics don't matter, productivity and effectiveness do and Werner is greatly lacking in those two areas.
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Looking at league stats only. Looking at understat as they list positions played. Including sub minutes for Werner as I think that's almost exclusively been as a wide left player.

This season Son has 2 assists and 1 goal playing on the left in 5 games. 431 minutes played there.

Last season 4 goals 6 assists from the left from 16 games. 1417 minutes played there.

A goal or assist every 142 minutes.

Understat has Werner playing as a striker or AM twice across these two seasons. 3 goals, 4 assists.

A goal or assist every 160 minutes.

There may be inaccuracies in that, both the registration of positions played and in my maths. For me it matches up quite well with the eye test.

Neither Son or Werner are particularly prolific in terms of goals and assists from the left in this system. Werner has underperformed his xG by 3.6 over this time, certainly not a good thing.

But I also think his misses that obviously are getting quite a lot of attention, that just as obviously aren't a good thing, are somewhat giving the impression that he's even less effective than he's actually been.

And just to be clear I'd still start Son over Werner. But Werner is a useful player and between the two it's much closer than it would have been had Son been more prolific.

Interestingly Werner has an xG per 90 on the left that's quite a bit higher than Son's. Relatively small sample size, and Werner has quite a few sub appearances (game state, fresh legs) that seemingly boosts it a bit. But also pointing towards Son not getting into or getting those shooting chances that Werner gets.

I think that matches the eye test too. Werner getting through on goal quite a bit, Son less so. Could be a lot of reasons for that of course.
 
braineclipse said:
Looking at league stats only. Looking at understat as they list positions played. Including sub minutes for Werner as I think that's almost exclusively been as a wide left player.

This season Son has 2 assists and 1 goal playing on the left in 5 games. 431 minutes played there.

Last season 4 goals 6 assists from the left from 16 games. 1417 minutes played there.

A goal or assist every 142 minutes.

Understat has Werner playing as a striker or AM twice across these two seasons. 3 goals, 4 assists.

A goal or assist every 160 minutes.

There may be inaccuracies in that, both the registration of positions played and in my maths. For me it matches up quite well with the eye test.

Neither Son or Werner are particularly prolific in terms of goals and assists from the left in this system. Werner has underperformed his xG by 3.6 over this time, certainly not a good thing.

But I also think his misses that obviously are getting quite a lot of attention, that just as obviously aren't a good thing, are somewhat giving the impression that he's even less effective than he's actually been.

And just to be clear I'd still start Son over Werner. But Werner is a useful player and between the two it's much closer than it would have been had Son been more prolific.

Interestingly Werner has an xG per 90 on the left that's quite a bit higher than Son's. Relatively small sample size, and Werner has quite a few sub appearances (game state, fresh legs) that seemingly boosts it a bit. But also pointing towards Son not getting into or getting those shooting chances that Werner gets.

I think that matches the eye test too. Werner getting through on goal quite a bit, Son less so. Could be a lot of reasons for that of course.
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Tbh I don't rate Son on the wing either at this point. I wouldn't play him there either, so it's kind of poor winger Vs another poor winger for me.
 
Bishop said:
Tbh I don't rate Son on the wing either at this point. I wouldn't play him there either, so it's kind of poor winger Vs another poor winger for me.
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I think Son on the whole still offers a lot on the wing. Maybe he doesn’t offer the same as Werner in terms of staying wide, work rate etc but he creates chances, is still by far the best finisher at the club and he can score out of nothing which none of the other forwards can really. Like you, I don’t rate our forwards that highly either individually or as a unit which is why Son has to play for me unless he’s in rotten form or if fitness is an issue. But even Son in bad form can/will get goals.
 
Maddison and Moore walking to the ground as the traffic was so bad

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Jurgen the German said:
I think Son on the whole still offers a lot on the wing. Maybe he doesn’t offer the same as Werner in terms of staying wide, work rate etc but he creates chances, is still by far the best finisher at the club and he can score out of nothing which none of the other forwards can really. Like you, I don’t rate our forwards that highly either individually or as a unit which is why Son has to play for me unless he’s in rotten form or if fitness is an issue. But even Son in bad form can/will get goals.
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When I say I would play Son I mean it more as in given unlimited choice he would no longer sadly be my choice to start for us in the left. Do I think we have a better option right now? I don't know, I'm hopeful that Odobert and or Moore can be the quality we need there but I think we'd see a massive drop in the goals scored category so it's a difficult one. Like you noticed I'm just unconvinced by the starters and I guess the options we have.
 
Anyone else find it odd that the likes of Haaland was laughing on the bench when they were losing to us? Pep didn’t seem overly bothered either. I get that this tournament isn’t a priority for them and Pep said as much, but was strange seeing them appearing so carefree about losing the game. I wonder if the court case is having some kind of impact on them and people on the inside of that club know what’s coming.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Anyone else find it odd that the likes of Haaland was laughing on the bench when they were losing to us? Pep didn’t seem overly bothered either. I get that this tournament isn’t a priority for them and Pep said as much, but was strange seeing them appearing so carefree about losing the game. I wonder if the court case is having some kind of impact on them and people on the inside of that club know what’s coming.
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Maybe they were taking about something else and having a laugh...

And why not.
 
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