*** OMT Tottenham Hotspur v Some european team ***

[PochettinoPochettinoPochettino]

Not making excuses (we had the subs etc) but does anyone think 60 mins with 10 men three days earlier cost us too?

Massively. I said this to the guy who I was sitting with before kick off. I thougth Bayern would be too strong for us for that exact reason. I said it could have been like playing extra time in a cup game, which undoubtedly will make the players more tired for a midweek game. Tiredness must have come into it. I am not sure how Bayern got on in their weekend game prior to the CL match but I doubt they were running around with 1 less man having to defend without the ball time and time again.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Poch might have been helped by the fact that half of the stadium had left by full-time! Maybe even more than half. So hard to say what the reaction would have been if everyone had stayed.

Personally though I actually thought the atmosphere was really good until the 83rd minute. We were still behind the team at that point I thought, as if we still had a chance of getting something from the game (or at least deserved praise for trying to). Then the last 3 goals happened so quickly loads of people just left, before really having the chance to air whatever their feelings were!

First-half was incredible, in fact, my mate and I were saying this was what the CL Final should’ve been like; loud, electric and two slightly mental but exciting sides trading blows. Lewandoski’s goal took a big gust of life out of the crowd for me, and we never quite recovered. It felt like total bewilderment. By the end it felt like most people were in shell-shock. I think the likes of Sonny were too. The boos? Yes they were there BUT most of us were genuinely shell-shocked. It was beyond anger. Personally I’d have been OK had it not been for that last 10 mins; I cannot get the repeated image of
Aurier walking around feeling sorry for himself and deserting his duties, juxtaposed against Rose flying in for a 50/50 in the 90th min on the other side of the pitch from me.

Cool, thanks, good to hear. Sounds like Poch might have some time yet then.

 

[SteveAWOL]

Massively. I said this to the guy who I was sitting with before kick off. I thougth Bayern would be too strong for us for that exact reason. I said it could have been like playing extra time in a cup game, which undoubtedly will make the players more tired for a midweek game. Tiredness must have come into it. I am not sure how Bayern got on in their weekend game prior to the CL match but I doubt they were running around with 1 less man having to defend without the ball time and time again.

Looks like they didn’t expend much energy (64% possession) to beat some plucky minnows...

 

[parklane1]

First-half was incredible, in fact, my mate and I were saying this was what the CL Final should’ve been like; loud, electric and two slightly mental but exciting sides trading blows. Lewandoski’s goal took a big gust of life out of the crowd for me, and we never quite recovered. It felt like total bewilderment. By the end it felt like most people were in shell-shock. I think the likes of Sonny were too. The boos? Yes they were there BUT most of us were genuinely shell-shocked. It was beyond anger. Personally I’d have been OK had it not been for that last 10 mins; I cannot get the repeated image of
Aurier walking around feeling sorry for himself and deserting his duties, juxtaposed against Rose flying in for a 50/50 in the 90th min on the other side of the pitch from me.

That is pretty much how we felt as well, i/we could not believe what we were seeing and it was not really sinking in. As you say there were a few boos at the end but overall those i was with and have spoken to since were not really angry with Poch more mystified that it had happened.

I must say I/we were very impressed with Bayern and their play but we all said that a few of the players for us have seen their better days. I know you have said Rose was good but i believe he is was a liability and has been most of the season ( imo). I ( like yourself) have seen us beaten heavily over the decades and on those occasions was angry but for some reason this defeat was more of a shock then anger.

 

[braineclipse]

First-half was incredible, in fact, my mate and I were saying this was what the CL Final should’ve been like; loud, electric and two slightly mental but exciting sides trading blows. Lewandoski’s goal took a big gust of life out of the crowd for me, and we never quite recovered. It felt like total bewilderment. By the end it felt like most people were in shell-shock. I think the likes of Sonny were too. The boos? Yes they were there BUT most of us were genuinely shell-shocked. It was beyond anger. Personally I’d have been OK had it not been for that last 10 mins; I cannot get the repeated image of
Aurier walking around feeling sorry for himself and deserting his duties, juxtaposed against Rose flying in for a 50/50 in the 90th min on the other side of the pitch from me.

We were very good. Through working extremely hard, pressing, getting back. Then we tired badly, so predictably that a commentator predicted it (though it was Hoddle with more footballing knowledge than most commentators). Then we didn't adjust. Yes it could have been different had we been clinical, but we can't depend on being that clinical.

Isn't it equally strange how they had very few chances in the first half given that we were playing 'a system everyone fails with'?

(Or have I misunderstood your post, and actually you think Bayern did have a lot of chances in the first chance?)

No it's not. The diamond works when we play with that intensity. But that intensity is unsustainable, so as we tired gaps appeared, then became massive creeks and valleys.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

If the system is that flawed we cant even keep it up for a full half a game, how on earth can people suggest its good/we played well?

If we need to run around so much that after 35 minutes we are dead on our feet, something is fundamentally wrong.

 

[elltrev]

We were very good. Through working extremely hard, pressing, getting back. Then we tired badly, so predictably that a commentator predicted it (though it was Hoddle with more footballing knowledge than most commentators). Then we didn't adjust. Yes it could have been different had we been clinical, but we can't depend on being that clinical.No it's not. The diamond works when we play with that intensity. But that intensity is unsustainable, so as we tired gaps appeared, then became massive creeks and valleys.

Ah fair enough, yeah I can agree with that. I don't think we were playing the diamond in the second half, but can accept that any gaps in the second half might have been caused in part by tiredness from the first half's exertions in the diamond.

 

[yiddo37]

Thing with this diamond formation, when attacking it can provide a lot of openings and can be very exciting. What I don't get with it is when defending does it really have to stay rigid? I mean can't the players adapt to a defensive line of 4-3-2-1 or 4-5-1 asap when we lose the ball, or is that asking the impossible?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Thing with this diamond formation, when attacking it can provide a lot of openings and can be very exciting. What I don't get with it is when defending does it really have to stay rigid? I mean can't the players adapt to a defensive line of 4-3-2-1 or 4-5-1 asap when we lose the ball, or is that asking the impossible?

The issue isn’t the system when defending but the players possibly

 

[yiddo37]

The issue isn’t the system when defending but the players possibly

Yes possibly. As someone who has played football for over 25 years I myself would have no problem in understanding my role in the side if it meant adjusting my position when need be, maybe the transition would just be too quick for it to be plausible.

 

[StephenH]

Surly the system one plays is the one that suits the strengths of the players at ones disposal?
Thus some systems may not be suitable by the same logic!

 

[braineclipse]

Thing with this diamond formation, when attacking it can provide a lot of openings and can be very exciting. What I don't get with it is when defending does it really have to stay rigid? I mean can't the players adapt to a defensive line of 4-3-2-1 or 4-5-1 asap when we lose the ball, or is that asking the impossible?

So one of the front three (probably the #10) can drop back and make it a flat 4-4-2. As he plays centrally centre midfield would be the easiest, usually will be further to get to the wing. Or you could ask two of them to drop back into some kind of midfield five.

Certainly doable, but for how long and at what cost? I think it's just too much to ask. You're asking for exhaustion. And even a 4-4-2 takes a lot of hard work to make work defensively against good teams. I think the Bayern game illustrated that quite well.

Perhaps you could divide that defensive responsibility between two of the front three, have them switch positions and ask both of them to just run themselves into the ground. Take both off after about an hour, two new players do the same. Seems flawed to me. You'd need players that play well as a #10 and a striker, quality players on the bench and players willing to play in a way that guarantees them being subbed after an hour. Then deal with injuries, poor performances etc having two forced substitutions.

Or, you could use the diamond as an impact formation, for parts of games. Changing to something else before players exhaust themselves. Throw some different problems at the opposition at various times.

 

[braineclipse]

The issue isn’t the system when defending but the players possibly

When players tire and you can't keep up the high pressure and players can't track back as much you're left with a midfield three and a defensively fairly ineffective front three.

Sure, get peak Wanyama, Dier and Sandro as the midfield three and they'd probably manage to keep it fairly solid. The problem then is you have that midfield when you have the ball too...

 

[braineclipse]

I think they had few chances because for the first 30 minutes of the game Bayern really struggled to get any attacks going as our attacking press was so successful.

As an aside do you think that Winks is good defensively? I see him playing as the deepest player but be wrong side of his opponent quite often when the opposition are in possession. I also see him charging around towards the ball instead of considering his position and ensuring that the key attacking area of the pitch isn't unmanned. Of course I could be doing Winks a massive disservice here and it could be that Pochettino is asking for this and hoping that as Winks charges to the ball Sissoko or N'Dombele tuck into ensure there isn't an acre of space in front of our centre halves. If Pochettino is hoping for that then he isn't getting those hopes across to the players.

I agree with the first paragraph. The question is can we do that without tiring as much as we then did later in the half and for the rest of the game. Sissoko looked like he was at the end of 120 minutes, not 90, by the end.

Winks is good enough defensively imo, in a well structured team set up to defend from the front. He's not as solid as Wanyama or Dier were at their best, not at all. But he offers a lot more on the ball.

If we require a proper midfield destroyer in our setup I don't think he's good enough defensively. He's improving though and good enough if we play differently to what we have for most of this season.

 

[yiddo37]

Attacking - Diamond midfield to forward line:
----------------------Winks-----------------
-------Sissoko-------------Ndombele
------------------------Alli--------------------
-----------------Son---------Kane---------

Defending - become 4-3-2-1
-----------Sissoko------Winks------------
------Son-----------Alli---------Ndombele
----------------------Kane----------------------

Just an example using the players from Tuesday, think the transition is doable just not probable.

 

[fernadez]

Attacking - Diamond midfield to forward line:
----------------------Winks-----------------
-------Sissoko-------------Ndombele
------------------------Alli--------------------
-----------------Son---------Kane---------

Defending - become 4-3-2-1
-----------Sissoko------Winks------------
------Son-----------Alli---------Ndombele
----------------------Kane----------------------

Just an example using the players from Tuesday, think the transition is doable just not probable.

True, we just stayed in the first formation at all times for some reason giving the 3 in midfield too much work to do. At the time I didn't understand why Alli wasn't dropping in to help out, the only conclusion is it must be what Poch wanted.

 

[SteveAWOL]

Thing with this diamond formation, when attacking it can provide a lot of openings and can be very exciting. What I don't get with it is when defending does it really have to stay rigid? I mean can't the players adapt to a defensive line of 4-3-2-1 or 4-5-1 asap when we lose the ball, or is that asking the impossible?

FWIW... from https://www.coachesvoice.com/tactical-analysis-tottenham-2-bayern-munich-7/


Tottenham started with a four-diamond-two formation that featured Dele Alli at the peak of midfield, Harry Winks at the base, and Frenchmen Tanguy Ndombele and Moussa Sissoko between them. The hosts also initially used an aggressive press with that same shape, in which Son Heung-min joined Harry Kane on the top line, and full-backs Serge Aurier and Danny Rose were encouraged to advance.


German champions Bayern Munich were set up into a 4-2-3-1 formation by manager Niko Kovac. Against Tottenham’s diamond midfield, they recognised both the potential for spaces in wide areas and that they could be exploited by switches of play.


Pochettino’s team attempted to negate their visitors by switching to a 4-4-2 when they were defending


but Bayern simply adjusted again; Coutinho drifted inside towards Tolisso and substitute Thiago Alcântara to create three-on-two overloads against Harry Winks and Tanguy Ndombele or Moussa Sissoko. Those overloads forced Spurs to become even more compact, and therefore concede further space out wide.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

FWIW... from https://www.coachesvoice.com/tactical-analysis-tottenham-2-bayern-munich-7/

View attachment 7353
Tottenham started with a four-diamond-two formation that featured Dele Alli at the peak of midfield, Harry Winks at the base, and Frenchmen Tanguy Ndombele and Moussa Sissoko between them. The hosts also initially used an aggressive press with that same shape, in which Son Heung-min joined Harry Kane on the top line, and full-backs Serge Aurier and Danny Rose were encouraged to advance.

View attachment 7354
German champions Bayern Munich were set up into a 4-2-3-1 formation by manager Niko Kovac. Against Tottenham’s diamond midfield, they recognised both the potential for spaces in wide areas and that they could be exploited by switches of play.

View attachment 7355
Pochettino’s team attempted to negate their visitors by switching to a 4-4-2 when they were defending

View attachment 7356
but Bayern simply adjusted again; Coutinho drifted inside towards Tolisso and substitute Thiago Alcântara to create three-on-two overloads against Harry Winks and Tanguy Ndombele or Moussa Sissoko. Those overloads forced Spurs to become even more compact, and therefore concede further space out wide.

Wow
Such a simple but accurate way to describe the game

 

[superfaisty]

Just read an interesting point in the guardian website previewing saturdays game with Brighton with regard shots on our goal

‘ they have let their opponents have 112 this season (24 more than Brighton), and the 44 shots on target they have conceded is the most in the league, and already 40% of their figure for the entire 2016-17 season, when they finished second to Chelsea. Lloris was unlucky to be beaten so often on Tuesday, but he is being tested much too frequently’

I finally bought myself to watch the goals and eff me the goals scored were top notch Loris had no chance but was poor defending with nary a timely tackle or block put in. Does the above point back up the call for a dier-esque shield in front of our CBs?

 

[glasgowspur]

Just read an interesting point in the guardian website previewing saturdays game with Brighton with regard shots on our goal

‘ they have let their opponents have 112 this season (24 more than Brighton), and the 44 shots on target they have conceded is the most in the league, and already 40% of their figure for the entire 2016-17 season, when they finished second to Chelsea. Lloris was unlucky to be beaten so often on Tuesday, but he is being tested much too frequently’

I finally bought myself to watch the goals and eff me the goals scored were top notch Loris had no chance but was poor defending with nary a timely tackle or block put in. Does the above point back up the call for a dier-esque shield in front of our CBs?

Yes, been saying for ages but we really miss wanyama and or dier.