*** OMT - Tottenham Hotspur v AZ - 6.3.25 ***

[Muttley]

Since the return of playerS? There's only been one that's improved the first XI, Vicario.

Yeah, but you can use 16 players in a game. I remember Utd being the unlucky ones. Only one week earlier, we had no bench. From Utd onwards we've had a very decent bench and full match day squad.

You're probably right that only Venom has improved us. We might be being harsh on Danso though. He's been a rock to be fair.

Udogie hasn't hit his stride whilst Johnson and Odobert have been hit and miss.

Did I hear on Thursday our bench cost something like £250m.

 

[Muttley]

Return of who?

Ange has said that if the players are in the squad they are ready. It's just a case of how to integrate them (his words).

We've had Venom, Udogie, Johnson, Solanke, Odobert, Werner return. We've added Kinsky, Tel and Danso and brought back Scarlett. That is 10 players that Ange didn't have access not so long ago.

Our squad is stacked, but it is probably fair to say that some are on their way from injury free to match fit to top form. It is still eleven vs eleven and whatever combo of players were on that pitch on Thursday, they should have been better than what they saw.

 

[tommysvr]

Ange has said that if the players are in the squad they are ready. It's just a case of how to integrate them (his words).

We've had Venom, Udogie, Johnson, Solanke, Odobert, Werner return. We've added Kinsky, Tel and Danso and brought back Scarlett. That is 10 players that Ange didn't have access not so long ago.

Our squad is stacked, but it is probably fair to say that some are on their way from injury free to match fit to top form. It is still eleven vs eleven and whatever combo of players were on that pitch on Thursday, they should have been better than what they saw.

The idea that a squad can bounce back from 10+ injuries and everything that’s happened in the meantime in 2-3 weeks is ludicrous

 

[Muttley]

The idea that a squad can bounce back from 10+ injuries and everything that’s happened in the meantime in 2-3 weeks is ludicrous

Yeah, don't think that is what we were expecting though. Against AZ, I would have expected a core of players to hold things together better to help the returnees slot in. Let's face it, our defence and midfield have been pretty stable since the Utd game and we've had loads of training ground time. It is perhaps only Udogie that slotted in with 6 other regulars. That should have been a strong enough platform to build around versus what I saw on Thursday.

Interested to know what you were expecting? Is what I'm asking so ludicrous?

 

[tommysvr]

Yeah, don't think that is what we were expecting though. Against AZ, I would have expected a core of players to hold things together better to help the returnees slot in. Let's face it, our defence and midfield have been pretty stable since the Utd game and we've had loads of training ground time. It is perhaps only Udogie that slotted in with 6 other regulars. That should have been a strong enough platform to build around versus what I saw on Thursday.

Interested to know what you were expecting? Is what I'm asking so ludicrous?

No, sorry, I wasn’t necessarily disagreeing with you just trying to add to it. We clearly didn’t play well against AZ but that sort of performance wasn’t out of the realm of possibility for me.

Match fitness is one issue, but more than that’s its confidence. Confidence in themselves and what Ange is asking them to do.

 

[Muttley]

No, sorry, I wasn’t necessarily disagreeing with you just trying to add to it. We clearly didn’t play well against AZ but that sort of performance wasn’t out of the realm of possibility for me.

Match fitness is one issue, but more than that’s its confidence. Confidence in themselves and what Ange is asking them to do.

I actually think confidence and confusion go together in what we're seeing at the moment.

I've said before that Ange's system might have a higher ceiling than most out there which is why it can seem unplayable at times. The problem seems to be the instability on the journey and the spectacular fails when it falls apart. The distance between good and bad is big, hence I guess your realm of possibility observation. I don't know whether that realms of possibility stretches to us getting thumped by a team soon. I have a feeling it could easily go this direction.

I think we'll see tomorrow a manager that is taking a slightly different approach. He is not reverse engineering from his optimal tactical system. He has built towards it using some simpler concepts and at this stage it is a very consistent model that is getting them punching above their weight. Pragmatism all round.

 

[tommysvr]

I actually think confidence and confusion go together in what we're seeing at the moment.

I've said before that Ange's system might have a higher ceiling than most out there which is why it can seem unplayable at times. The problem seems to be the instability on the journey and the spectacular fails when it falls apart. The distance between good and bad is big, hence I guess your realm of possibility observation. I don't know whether that realms of possibility stretches to us getting thumped by a team soon. I have a feeling it could easily go this direction.

I think we'll see tomorrow a manager that is taking a slightly different approach. He is not reverse engineering from his optimal tactical system. He has built towards it using some simpler concepts and at this stage it is a very consistent model that is getting them punching above their weight. Pragmatism all round.

Which I think will be the downfall of Ange. I’d rather he doubles down on his approach. Like you say, when the system is on it can be completely unplayable. Every where he’s gone it’s taken time but he’s made it work (in part) because he sticks with it — his single minded belief makes others believe. When the person you’re following starts to doubt what they’re telling you, it’s only natural you start doubting too.

(This shouldn’t be read in complete blacks and whites. There are nuances to doubling down on what you believe.)

 

[Finney Is Back]

And people should stop using our transfer strategy as an excuse for the manager because he's clearly on board with it and on his own words driving it.

Not too many managers would get onboard with that though. Esepecially if there is pressure on them to finish in the top 4/6

 

[Muttley]

Which I think will be the downfall of Ange. I’d rather he doubles down on his approach. Like you say, when the system is on it can be completely unplayable. Every where he’s gone it’s taken time but he’s made it work (in part) because he sticks with it — his single minded belief makes others believe. When the person you’re following starts to doubt what they’re telling you, it’s only natural you start doubting too.

(This shouldn’t be read in complete blacks and whites. There are nuances to doubling down on what you believe.)

Interesting, so you're perhaps in the camp where you think his system can be successful given time. Therefore he should stick to his guns and get the players heads into the right place. Makes sense from that perspective.

There's clearly no right or wrong but I'm actually not bought into the system. I am one of those that have questioned it from day 1. I unfortunately didn't get to see much of his Australian, Japanese or Scotish adventures. I have my suspicions that it was probably easier to embed it there. You can go a long way with super intelligent players who listen. I bet he had an abundance of that. Sprinkle that with a few stars with some amazing talent and you get results. The problem in the PL is you've probably got more players with both intelligence and natural ability. So your players don't get away with losing their shape as the other team have their chess moves ready to go. They can pass around your high press and smell any player out of position to exploit it. Not every time, but way more than Ange would have ever encountered.

I think this is partially why the PL can be as dull as ditchwater. The other big aspect is the dark arts and officiating together stifling the entertainment value. Part of the territory of the PL is finding ways to stifle the opposition, legal or other. Not that I want my team to do it, but it goes with the territory of being a PL manager. Ange doesn't get his teams to take advantage of the really poor officiating like others do. That costs him based on what I see.

 

[billyiddo]

Not too many managers would get onboard with that though. Esepecially if there is pressure on them to finish in the top 4/6

Disagree, we've got the team and squad to be in around those places (yes even with European football) it's only injuries that has meant those positions should possibly be off the table as a reasonable target. Us performing at a level just above the relegation fight is a gross underperformance.

I think there's probably a much bigger list of managers we could attract than a couple of years back now that we've shown that we are spending at one of the highest levels in Europe and have put together a young and exciting squad.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Disagree, we've got the team and squad to be in around those places (yes even with European football) it's only injuries that has meant those positions should possibly be off the table as a reasonable target. Us performing at a level just above the relegation fight is a gross underperformance.

The injury situation has been horrific. Had we not had the injury situation that we had I think we would've been far higher up the league.

If a manager has lots of pressure from the board to finish top 4 or 6 then I don't think they would be OK leaning towards a long term rebuild with young players. Perhaps you feel differently but I just don't tend to see it in foothall.

 

[billyiddo]

The injury situation has been horrific. Had we not had the injury situation that we had I think we would've been far higher up the league.

If a manager has lots of pressure from the board to finish top 4 or 6 then I don't think they would be OK leaning towards a long term rebuild with young players. Perhaps you feel differently but I just don't tend to see it in foothall.

Well yes of course we would have likely been higher without the injury situation, though I'd imagine based on points accumulated across last season and this outside of the worse of our injury crisis is it would probably be around mid table rather than bottom half.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Ange has said that if the players are in the squad they are ready. It's just a case of how to integrate them (his words).

We've had Venom, Udogie, Johnson, Solanke, Odobert, Werner return. We've added Kinsky, Tel and Danso and brought back Scarlett. That is 10 players that Ange didn't have access not so long ago.

Our squad is stacked, but it is probably fair to say that some are on their way from injury free to match fit to top form. It is still eleven vs eleven and whatever combo of players were on that pitch on Thursday, they should have been better than what they saw.

Sorry mate but your on a different planet there if you think it was gonna be an instant fix

 

[Muttley]

Sorry mate but your on a different planet there if you think it was gonna be an instant fix

Instant fix - your words, not mine mate. Have I said that?

I even posted earlier on the very opposite. I talked about a core and now fresh group of about 7 or 8 that has now been playing together for a while hopefully being a platform for the returnees to slot in around. Then we have other core players (Biss, Sarr etc) that operate the same way from the bench.

We saw regression not progression on Thursday again. Nobody is expecting miracles, certainly not me. I am expecting more than I saw on Thursday though.

Let's see if they can use 2 home games to show some actual progress.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Instant fix - your words, not mine mate. Have I said that?

I even posted earlier on the very opposite. I talked about a core and now fresh group of about 7 or 8 that has now been playing together for a while hopefully being a platform for the returnees to slot in around. Then we have other core players (Biss, Sarr etc) that operate the same way from the bench.

We saw regression not progression on Thursday again. Nobody is expecting miracles, certainly not me. I am expecting more than I saw on Thursday though.

Let's see if they can use 2 home games to show some actual progress.

We haven’t got many players back yet
I was expecting more on Thursday
Everyone was
But as usual
When it comes to these comps
The senior players go hiding
They can’t do that again

 

[markysimmo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1897986322259640480

 

[Bedfordspurs]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1897986322259640480

Son has ZERO for everything

 

[markysimmo]

Son has ZERO for everything

Unreal, has he lost it or is Ange's style of play not working for him

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Unreal, has he lost it or is Ange's style of play not working for him

Both
He had never been technically good in possession football

 

[markysimmo]

Both
He had never been technically good in possession football

It's such a shame, in the past two seasons I reckon he has had less than 10 really outstanding games