*** OMT - Tottenham Hotspur v AZ - 6.3.25 ***

[thfcsteff]

Google it

Prickly like Ange there.

I presume this is what you're referring to?
Bear in mind, he was hired to do the job because he fitted the remit being asked of the manager being hired for this project.

 

[SpurMeUp]

He’s delivering a season, so far, that’s pretty much as bad as anything even in the 90s save for maybe the worst seasons of Gross and Ossie where we battled relegation. That after 20 years of pretty much battling for top 6 or higher. The back end of last season wasn’t too hot either.

It’s been really, really poor. Worse than I imagined he’d deliver. What has he shown to deserve anyone keeping the faith?

I guess the question is: what would other managers have achieved missing both CBs and starting teenagers? I don’t think even the best mangers would have done that well. And there is some silver lining in seeing Spence, Gray and Bergvall come through.

The issue for me is the press and how open it makes us. That’s not really contingent on skill levels or experience but having the team well drilled. And we’re not. It’s a bit of a school yard press and lacks some coordination. The net effect is we often open ourselves up whilst simultaneously leaving opposition players free to take the ball. But to be fair it wasn’t so bad as now previously. We were winning the ball a lot more from our press previously. A press is all or nothing. You either strangle the other side or they play around you and you’re exposed whilst pushing up. For us, recently, it’s the latter.

 

[thfcsteff]

If my world weary and cynical views sound fair enough to you of all people, colour me worried!

Still in the tie, but last night felt draining to watch.

It really did.

 

[billyiddo]

Prickly like Ange there.

I presume this is what you're referring to?
Bear in mind, he was hired to do the job because he fitted the remit being asked of the manager being hired for this project.

And a part of taking a job and appointing a manager is being in line with eachothers thinking. This is a good thing.

 

[thfcsteff]

And a part of taking a job and appointing a manager is being in line with eachothers thinking. This is a good thing.

And?
This point has been addressed before.

 

[billyiddo]

And?
This point has been addressed before.

And people should stop using our transfer strategy as an excuse for the manager because he's clearly on board with it and on his own words driving it.

 

[thfcsteff]

And people should stop using our transfer strategy as an excuse for the manager because he's clearly on board with it and on his own words driving it.

And other people should grasp how long it takes to develop a side built on the backs of young players. He is absolutely right in the video, he will likely not get to see the fruits of this current labour (based on last night I'd say his goose is cooked this summer - understandably) but I guarantee he will receive little to no credit for what are the hardest yards in a project like this.

 

[billyiddo]

And other people should grasp how long it takes to develop a side built on the backs of young players. He is absolutely right in the video, he will likely not get to see the fruits of this current labour (based on last night I'd say his goose is cooked this summer - understandably) but I guarantee he will receive little to no credit for what are the hardest yards in a project like this.

Who doesn't grasp that?

 

[thfcsteff]

Who doesn't grasp that?

Apparently lots of people who simply think he is brick.

 

[Muttley]

Ange has always got a healthy dose of the "benefit of the doubt" through his time at Spurs.

8 changes for the Fulham league cup game, the defensive stats from corners / free kicks, conceding over 60 goals in the league, players away at AFCON/Asia cup, player exclusion, inverted full-backs, midfielders going AWOL, injuries, fatigue, no number 6, young squad. The list just goes on and on where we've used logical arguments to get behind him.

Problem is, I'm now not seeing the good. Whether some of us liked it or not, where was the Ange-ball last night?

I had some reservations from the early days. I really enjoyed the 23/24 pre-season but the West Ham loss was probably my very first data point. We battered them and lost because of a fragility that has never gone away under Ange. It's an underbelly of his system. I also don't aways get on with his narratives that seem like deflection of critical football questions. He's a philosopher more than a football coach in my mind.

 

[tommysvr]

I don't mind not winning the EL largely because I never thought we would. I never put it as a condition of my continued support for Ange. Losing isn't even the issue, it's the nature of the performances and a lack of adjustment or preparation I see. Those issues have been present since day one and from what I can see have never been addressed. So we find ourselves with an ideological manager whose system isn't working and one who seems unable to adapt it to work better in his current scenario.

That’s totally fair, and I agree that it’s the nature of the performances more than results. But up until November, we did play well in a lot of games. We didn’t get results for various reasons, but we also battered a bunch of teams.

If anyone wants to ignore the role that injuries have had since then, that’s up to them. I don’t ignore that. It’s going to take more time.

 

[Bishop]

I guess the question is: what would other managers have achieved missing both CBs and starting teenagers? I don’t think even the best mangers would have done that well. And there is some silver lining in seeing Spence, Gray and Bergvall come through.

The issue for me is the press and how open it makes us. That’s not really contingent on skill levels or experience but having the team well drilled. And we’re not. It’s a bit of a school yard press and lacks some coordination. The net effect is we often open ourselves up whilst simultaneously leaving opposition players free to take the ball. But to be fair it wasn’t so bad as now previously. We were winning the ball a lot more from our press previously. A press is all or nothing. You either strangle the other side or they play around you and you’re exposed whilst pushing up. For us, recently, it’s the latter.

See for me the results aren't the problem. It's the performances and the approach to the games that I have an issue with. The seeming lack of preparation for opponents or if it's not a lack of prep then it's a very poor analysis of how they will play and what we expect them to do.

So often we improve in the 2nd half half but it's a gallant effort, a little too late after the game is oost to actually make a difference. Which does say something about how we are going into games, a decent manager shouldn't be getting it wrong in first halves so often. And if it's a player issue, then he's unable to motivate to sufficient levels at the start of games adequately which ultimately leads to the same problem.

I honestly could take losing, even the number of games we have done so if I could see a genuine attempt to mitigate the faults, to address the failings but game after game we see the same patterns consistently as if the thought process is just "this time it will work". It doesn't, it hasn't and will not. That's why for me the key word is adaptation and unless I can see that he needs to go because his plan a is not so great that he doesn't need to pay attention how he's working relative to his peers.

 

[thfcsteff]

See for me the results aren't the problem. It's the performances and the approach to the games that I have an issue with. The seeming lack of preparation for opponents or if it's not a lack of prep then it's a very poor analysis of how they will play and what we expect them to do.

So often we improve in the 2nd half half but it's a gallant effort, a little too late after the game is oost to actually make a difference. Which does say something about how we are going into games, a decent manager shouldn't be getting it wrong in first halves so often. And if it's a player issue, then he's unable to motivate to sufficient levels at the start of games adequately which ultimately leads to the same problem.

I honestly could take losing, even the number of games we have done so if I could see a genuine attempt to mitigate the faults, to address the failings but game after game we see the same patterns consistently as if the thought process is just "this time it will work". It doesn't, it hasn't and will not. That's why for me the key word is adaptation and unless I can see that he needs to go because his plan a is not so great that he doesn't need to pay attention how he's working relative to his peers.

And I think this becomes the central issue. Do we want him to become more pragmatic in the traditional sense of a footballing pragmatist, or accept that he won't? And if we accept he won't, is 'his way' good enough, or what someone wants to support? I think those are the central questions, and they entail a blend of hard fact and personal opinion. Personally, I think that has been the way up until Thursday. Until Thursday, I think the debate was fairly open and free-ranging. However there is simply no debate to be had about Thursday -it was awful- and when something as conclusive happens in our biggest game of the season, then I agree with the skeptics that hard questions have to be asked.

I still subscribe to my friend's theory about the energy being sucked out of the room physically and mentally, with replenishment proving impossible, and if that continues to be the case through next Thursday night, and we get knocked out, then I suppose the main question has been answered. If we find our mojo, beat Bournemouth and knock AZ out, then we are back in the 'have we learned our lesson' saloon again. I will say that it feels increasingly hard to see him being the manager when we go to Asia on tour in the summer...

 

[DeanoAustin]

I guess the question is: what would other managers have achieved missing both CBs and starting teenagers? I don’t think even the best mangers would have done that well. And there is some silver lining in seeing Spence, Gray and Bergvall come through.

The issue for me is the press and how open it makes us. That’s not really contingent on skill levels or experience but having the team well drilled. And we’re not. It’s a bit of a school yard press and lacks some coordination. The net effect is we often open ourselves up whilst simultaneously leaving opposition players free to take the ball. But to be fair it wasn’t so bad as now previously. We were winning the ball a lot more from our press previously. A press is all or nothing. You either strangle the other side or they play around you and you’re exposed whilst pushing up. For us, recently, it’s the latter.

Honestly, I think being 12th - 15th is as bad as any manager can reasonably do with Spurs.

The press is a good point, the first goal v Villa in the cup was a great example of it. It was a bit weak and resulted in us being sliced open rather than turning the ball over.

The difference from Ange’s early games is stark. I always go back to it but against Brentford particularly last season I was struck by how positive every first touch was. Everything was geared towards getting forward quickly. Now, it seems teams have figured us out and the players have lost a bit of belief and aren’t willing to expose themselves as much by being that aggressive. If I’m reading it right and that is what’s happened, there is only one way this will finish and it’ll happen soon.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Honestly, I think being 12th - 15th is as bad as any manager can reasonably do with Spurs.

The press is a good point, the first goal v Villa in the cup was a great example of it. It was a bit weak and resulted in us being sliced open rather than turning the ball over.

The difference from Ange’s early games is stark. I always go back to it but against Brentford particularly last season I was struck by how positive every first touch was. Everything was geared towards getting forward quickly. Now, it seems teams have figured us out and the players have lost a bit of belief and aren’t willing to expose themselves as much by being that aggressive. If I’m reading it right and that is what’s happened, there is only one way this will finish and it’ll happen soon.

Without Romero and VDV we are compromised. Not pushing up as highly and compacting the space.

 

[Lemonade Money]

Apparently lots of people who simply think he is brick.

People who have already made their mind up, rather than keeping an open mind.
Yes the youth were ready to make an impact (even though they are clearly not the finished article), but playing with senior players, not carrying the team by themselves due to injuries.

 

[Muttley]

And I think this becomes the central issue. Do we want him to become more pragmatic in the traditional sense of a footballing pragmatist, or accept that he won't? And if we accept he won't, is 'his way' good enough, or what someone wants to support? I think those are the central questions, and they entail a blend of hard fact and personal opinion. Personally, I think that has been the way up until Thursday. Until Thursday, I think the debate was fairly open and free-ranging. However there is simply no debate to be had about Thursday -it was awful- and when something as conclusive happens in our biggest game of the season, then I agree with the skeptics that hard questions have to be asked.

I still subscribe to my friend's theory about the energy being sucked out of the room physically and mentally, with replenishment proving impossible, and if that continues to be the case through next Thursday night, and we get knocked out, then I suppose the main question has been answered. If we find our mojo, beat Bournemouth and knock AZ out, then we are back in the 'have we learned our lesson' saloon again. I will say that it feels increasingly hard to see him being the manager when we go to Asia on tour in the summer...

There were 2 things that Ange said in his presser that were really interesting. A little cryptic, but interesting.

The first was about our best versus our worst performance. Ange offered this up himself and wasn't led into it in any way. The second he was more led to, but in defence of a question about whether the players get it, he used something like the words "too transparent". He was basically saying that the players must understand his system because everyone is saying his system is too transparent to every other club.

I could read into these 2 comments so much actually. The second comment was a spiky and sarcastic answer delivered in a very non-spiky way by a consummate word-smither who has a load of techniques to avoid answering the actual "football" questions. The question on everyone's lips is why can't Ange after 20 months have a tactical system that his players adopt and execute on. A system that works like we'll see tomorrow from Iraola who started at the same time. Putting the players to one side for a minute, why is that? Ange cannot answer that question but has acknowledged it is why the best and the worst are wide apart.

I might remind him that we've seen nowhere near the best since the return of players, also acknowledging that players aren't all 100% fit and match fit. Back to back wins against poor Utd and Ipswich sides doesn't lift his stock back to where it needs to be if he can't follow it up. Ange is in real trouble at this point. He is no longer getting the benefit of the doubt. The eyes are squarely on him to perform in role or we move on.

 

[Lemonade Money]

There were 2 things that Ange said in his presser that were really interesting. A little cryptic, but interesting.

The first was about our best versus our worst performance. Ange offered this up himself and wasn't led into it in any way. The second he was more led to, but in defence of a question about whether the players get it, he used something like the words "too transparent". He was basically saying that the players must understand his system because everyone is saying his system is too transparent to every other club.

I could read into these 2 comments so much actually. The second comment was a spiky and sarcastic answer delivered in a very non-spiky way by a consummate word-smither who has a load of techniques to avoid answering the actual "football" questions. The question on everyone's lips is why can't Ange after 20 months have a tactical system that his players adopt and execute on. A system that works like we'll see tomorrow from Iraola who started at the same time. Putting the players to one side for a minute, why is that? Ange cannot answer that question but has acknowledged it is why the best and the worst are wide apart.

I might remind him that we've seen nowhere near the best since the return of players, also acknowledging that players aren't all 100% fit and match fit. Back to back wins against poor Utd and Ipswich sides doesn't lift his stock back to where it needs to be if he can't follow it up. Ange is in real trouble at this point. He is no longer getting the benefit of the doubt. The eyes are squarely on him to perform in role or we move on.

Since the return of playerS? There's only been one that's improved the first XI, Vicario.

 

[Baleforce]

Honestly, I think being 12th - 15th is as bad as any manager can reasonably do with Spurs.

The press is a good point, the first goal v Villa in the cup was a great example of it. It was a bit weak and resulted in us being sliced open rather than turning the ball over.

The difference from Ange’s early games is stark. I always go back to it but against Brentford particularly last season I was struck by how positive every first touch was. Everything was geared towards getting forward quickly. Now, it seems teams have figured us out and the players have lost a bit of belief and aren’t willing to expose themselves as much by being that aggressive. If I’m reading it right and that is what’s happened, there is only one way this will finish and it’ll happen soon.

If I’m defending against a player who I know has been drilled restrictively, I can simplify my playbook against them, if I don’t know what they will do I need to give myself more time and space to react, if I know what they are going to do I can focus my angle and get tight sooner, I have a much higher probability of creating a turnover.

Because “it’s always the same plan”, it easier to constrict.

I was chatting to a Palace supporting mate last night, he couldn’t believe how bad we were when we played them last, or that we kept trying to play out from the back even though it clearly wasn’t working.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

There were 2 things that Ange said in his presser that were really interesting. A little cryptic, but interesting.

The first was about our best versus our worst performance. Ange offered this up himself and wasn't led into it in any way. The second he was more led to, but in defence of a question about whether the players get it, he used something like the words "too transparent". He was basically saying that the players must understand his system because everyone is saying his system is too transparent to every other club.

I could read into these 2 comments so much actually. The second comment was a spiky and sarcastic answer delivered in a very non-spiky way by a consummate word-smither who has a load of techniques to avoid answering the actual "football" questions. The question on everyone's lips is why can't Ange after 20 months have a tactical system that his players adopt and execute on. A system that works like we'll see tomorrow from Iraola who started at the same time. Putting the players to one side for a minute, why is that? Ange cannot answer that question but has acknowledged it is why the best and the worst are wide apart.

I might remind him that we've seen nowhere near the best since the return of players, also acknowledging that players aren't all 100% fit and match fit. Back to back wins against poor Utd and Ipswich sides doesn't lift his stock back to where it needs to be if he can't follow it up. Ange is in real trouble at this point. He is no longer getting the benefit of the doubt. The eyes are squarely on him to perform in role or we move on.

Return of who?