*** OMT Tottenham Hotspur v AFC Bournemouth ***

[Bedfordspurs]

I think we have to define discipline though.

This feels like a little analogous to the fans knowing the laws of the games but VAR not enforcing them and therefore seeing things that just ain't right. In this case it is players not doing what fans expect them to do because of the tactical system of the manager.

Discipline to me is defined as playing to the tactical system that a manager has issued the players. I'm guessing that is what players aren't doing, but I think there is some naivety that even if they did, Ange's system is flawed anyway. I also think it is an extremely complex system as you get to play with loads of freedom......and then you obviously don't when it goes wrong. You get bashed for it.

I think you'll find we have a lot of players heads that are completely scrambled in this phase of the journey under Ange.

It would worry me if their heads are scrambled yet every thinks we play a tinkle easy system
That would make the pushers even dumber than I thought
What is clear to me is some players are really struggling to make basic passes again and that’s a skill set issue as much as anything
And we’re not talking poor technical players either
I can’t fathom that out TBH

 

[Muttley]

It would worry me if their heads are scrambled yet every thinks we play a tinkle easy system
That would make the pushers even dumber than I thought
What is clear to me is some players are really struggling to make basic passes again and that’s a skill set issue as much as anything
And we’re not talking poor technical players either
I can’t fathom that out TBH

Yeah, wasn't even thinking about the passing aspect but it's a good point. I think you have to be very relaxed to control and pass a ball well. When you tense up due to the head scrambling or pressure you're more likely to have that heavy touch or pass. I've heard others use the word "confidence" when talking about it. It's so true.

For us golfers, it can be like putting.

 

[DaveT316]

I think we have to define discipline though.

This feels like a little analogous to the fans knowing the laws of the games but VAR not enforcing them and therefore seeing things that just ain't right. In this case it is players not doing what fans expect them to do because of the tactical system of the manager.

Discipline to me is defined as playing to the tactical system that a manager has issued the players. I'm guessing that is what players aren't doing, but I think there is some naivety that even if they did, Ange's system is flawed anyway. I also think it is an extremely complex system as you get to play with loads of freedom......and then you obviously don't when it goes wrong. You get bashed for it.

I think you'll find we have a lot of players heads that are completely scrambled in this phase of the journey under Ange.

I get where you’re coming from here and I concede it is partially subjective / driven by bias on my part.

I’ll use Bentancur as an example here. All the off field stuff, which at best says to me he’s a macaron, then coupled with how reckless his play is, both in possession and how he goes about regaining it, the needless bookings leading to suspensions leaving his team exposed. For me, these examples fall into the definition of ‘ill discipline’ and we can’t continue carrying players like this.

I accept, his head may indeed be scrambled by Ange’s instructions and he’s definitely looked a better player than he is showing now. Add everything together though and it paints a more complete picture.

I guess the counterpoint is Gallagher. A lot of people dismissed him as an option in the summer and I can see why some feel he is a limited. However, where I feel you can’t fault him is his application and his mindset and I feel we need to balance the squad out with a few more with that kind of mindset vs a higher talent ceiling. Ideally, we’d have both, but both cost big bucks!

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

This is a serious question because my understanding is that whatever we make from the stadium goes back into the club. And that includes transfers and wages which don’t always add value to the club. How is the stadium a cash cow for ENIC? It obviously adds value but it did that on day 1 just by being built and having additional revenue streams. You make it sound like Levy and ENIC are taking money from the club that the stadium generates.

That’s fair comment but I think as a coach or player, you have to be very aware that whatever you say becomes a soundbite and gets taken out of context. When I read the quote, I didn’t take it as a dig but it can be interpreted that way. These lads get media training not to walk into that trap but Ange does repeatedly. Sometimes it’s heat of the moment stuff, sometimes he’s probably sending a message. Hard to know where that line exists.

When Ange was appointed, the thing that impressed me most was how he united the club and fan base. Obviously results play a big part in that but it seemed that he got us and we got him. It feels a bit like that’s broken. At times, I feel like he’s tinkled off at our crowd for unrealistic expectations or behaving contrary to what he believes. The City game last year seems like a turning point for that. He got in an argument with a fan that night and twice this season and some of his comments have felt a little like the relationship isn’t as close as it was in those early days. As I say, obviously results are a big part of that but not the only part IMO.

If Ange feels like someone is questioning his ability, it presses his buttons. (Same as the questioning his integrity).Obviously that's his problem. Anyone comfortable in his own skin it wouldn't even register.

If something is taken out of context (probably for all the reasons we love..clicks, headlines, money) it's for the receiver of that information to look at it and be objective about it...in harsher terms, be an adult about it.

If it was a dig at the fans, might a fan look at himself/herself and those around them and think 'we could do better?' Could I be positive, even in the face of a bad situation? Tbh, probably not...it's easier to take the route of a row, a blow up, a conflict, ....it's the modern starting position of the world...all they way up to the oval office

 

[Yiddo]

We've been waiting months and months for Romero.

Months and months.

Then Romero received the ball after 10 seconds, on his left foot, and calmly wafted his left foot at the ball to send it slowly and calmly sailing over Evanilson's head.

But instead he scuffed it straight to Evanlison on the edge of the box, with a free run at goal.

That is what we've been missing. Truly epic that.

We looked solid for the first 4 seconds of the match though, to be fair to Romero.

Romero is 1 of many players who are vastly overrated. The fact people have said he is world class is comical.

 

[fernadez]

It’s not just courage, it’s discipline. I think that’s the word I’ve been looking for. People like Bentancur, Bissouma, Maddison. They’re playing with absolutely none of this, completely reckless and like they’re playing for themselves to absolve themselves of this situation, which is making things worse.

And I hope the ones lacking courage - Johnson and Son (and obviously Werner) - are phased out next season too.

Counter argument is that is the example of Vicario constantly restarting the game quickly even though we were coughing up the ball and putting ourselves under more pressure is discipline personified. He's doing exactly what he's been told to do regardless of what the in game situation is. Anyone thinking for themselves would have seen what was going on, slowed the game down and started launching it long.
In this system when is the player meant to take responsibility for themselves? I 'll never forget the first friendly when they got in at half time and he ripped into them for managing the last 5 mins and trying to see the game out till the break.
I can imagine that the players would argue that they are playing with discipline as they are carrying out what they are being instructed to do.

 

[Muttley]

I get where you’re coming from here and I concede it is partially subjective / driven by bias on my part.

I’ll use Bentancur as an example here. All the off field stuff, which at best says to me he’s a macaron, then coupled with how reckless his play is, both in possession and how he goes about regaining it, the needless bookings leading to suspensions leaving his team exposed. For me, these examples fall into the definition of ‘ill discipline’ and we can’t continue carrying players like this.

I accept, his head may indeed be scrambled by Ange’s instructions and he’s definitely looked a better player than he is showing now. Add everything together though and it paints a more complete picture.

I guess the counterpoint is Gallagher. A lot of people dismissed him as an option in the summer and I can see why some feel he is a limited. However, where I feel you can’t fault him is his application and his mindset and I feel we need to balance the squad out with a few more with that kind of mindset vs a higher talent ceiling. Ideally, we’d have both, but both cost big bucks!

Yeah, those disciplinary examples add a slightly different context to where my thinking was.

I wrote the other day that Ange must have had some super intelligent players at his different clubs. He couldn't have had players with as much natural talent in the leagues he managed before, even the Australia national team. The natural assumption is that PL players should have both natural ability and football intelligence and that is why I think his defensive tactical system comes undone. He wouldn't have experienced it before in the speed and accuracy that the opposition exploits his team when they lose their shape. Then coming back to the point we were discussing, perhaps a few of ours do lack a bit of football intelligence that Galagher would have brought into the setup, not to mention the leadership. I've often spoken about Sarr playing with his heart, not his head in key moments. What I would say though is that if there is a lack of natural intelligence, you have to nurture it like crazy. I think Sarr could be way better at that side of his game with better coaching.

 

[DaveT316]

Yeah, those disciplinary examples add a slightly different context to where my thinking was.

I wrote the other day that Ange must have had some super intelligent players at his different clubs. He couldn't have had players with as much natural talent in the leagues he managed before, even the Australia national team. The natural assumption is that PL players should have both natural ability and football intelligence and that is why I think his defensive tactical system comes undone. He wouldn't have experienced it before in the speed and accuracy that the opposition exploits his team when they lose their shape. Then coming back to the point we were discussing, perhaps a few of ours do lack a bit of football intelligence that Galagher would have brought into the setup, not to mention the leadership. I've often spoken about Sarr playing with his heart, not his head in key moments. What I would say though is that if there is a lack of natural intelligence, you have to nurture it like crazy. I think Sarr could be way better at that side of his game with better coaching.

100% agree on all of this.

Do we have a lot of ‘stupid’ - not the right word, ‘lacking football intelligence’ is better - players or is the system just too complex for them? I feel the answer lies somewhere in between…

 

[billyiddo]

The system isn't necessarily too complex, imv it's more likely it just isn't fit for purpose at this level

 

[SpurMeUp]

The system isn't necessarily too complex, imv it's more likely it just isn't fit for purpose at this level

Or…the skill level of our players. Our passing is many degrees better than it has been under previous managers. We’ve been lacking in passing ability for a long time pre-Ange. Now we’re better but to play this system, we are still lacking at times.

My issue with Ange is the lack of cohesive system. Players have to find each other and don’t know where each other will be as much as say in a Conte setup. It can make us more fluid but also makes passing and finding team mates harder. We need a bit more structure and coordination to make it easier to pass and find team mates.

Yesterday almost all passes out were pressed. Credit to the opposition who didn’t play midweek. The upshot was our players receiving the pass is always a bit compromised before they’ve even taken the ball. Instead of a pass into their stride it was slightly behind or slightly in front etc

Tbf it’s a rusty team with players just back and not match sharp. Still, I feel like if we have a bit more coordination and structure we’d benefit as you remove the thinking time and know where to pass often - where your team mate will be and the run they’ll make.

I know it wasn’t a great performance, but it was heartening to have some quality players back even if they were rusty. There were glimmers of a higher quality of football. But also the same old openness in defence and a lack of cutting edge up front (which amounts to a lack of confidence, sometimes skill and coordination). We’re pausing unable to play without thinking. Which is partly on Ange and partly on having no consistency in the team.

 

[billyiddo]

My issue with Ange is the lack of cohesive system. Players have to find each other and don’t know where each other will be as much as say in a Conte setup. It can make us more fluid but also makes passing and finding team mates harder. We need a bit more structure and coordination to make it easier to pass and find team mates.

That's what the system is supposed to provide - we aren't supposed to have individual freedom like is being suggested - not sure if it was direct from Ange or someone who worked with him but when describing Ange-ball the idea is that when it works it is supposed to look fluid but the reality is everything is preplanned/drilled in to the players, which is no different to Conte and many others

 

[SpurMeUp]

I never get these situations.

AP has given his observation of the atmosphere in the stadium. Whether that implies it was edgy, tense, annoyed, frustrated or all of the above, it's true.

It's not a criticism of the fans just a factual observation. Does it make the situation harder for the players, probably, but Im sure Ange understands those feelings and knows thats how things role at football grounds.

I feel like the prevailing emotion in the stands is amplified at our stadium more than others. Which is how the stadium bowl and roof is designed right. An intense atmosphere is made that much more intense which is felt on the pitch - see the Chelsea games where things tend to get heated on the pitch. Frustration and neves in the stands are felt on the pitch and when there is silence it’s the loudest of all!

 

[SpurMeUp]

That's what the system is supposed to provide - we aren't supposed to have individual freedom like is being suggested - not sure if it was direct from Ange or someone who worked with him but when describing Ange-ball the idea is that when it works it is supposed to look fluid but the reality is everything is preplanned/drilled in to the players, which is no different to Conte and many others

Maybe that is how he started. But without the CBs and a high line maybe it went out the window? The only coordination seems to be the cut back cross across goal. And we don’t always look in tune on that either.

But tbf with a different team each week how could we look coordinated? I think it has been the biggest issue as there is nothing to build on and refine. And the only players who’ve been consistently in the side were18!

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Tbf it’s a rusty team with players just back and not match sharp. Still, I feel like if we have a bit more coordination and structure we’d benefit as you remove the thinking time and know where to pass often - where your team mate will be and the run they’ll make.

We've had two years to develop coordination and structure. Even players not playing or back from injury and training with the group get to experience what is being coached.

Most presses are beaten by confident one touch passing with known positions of teammates.

The irony is...if you watch back to those legendary first ten games we had some mind blowing periods of play, untouchable football. And it wasn't just because teams hadn't worked us out yet, it's because we had bravery, swagger and oozed confidence. There was no thinking and certainly no overthinking.

Now I'm not sure if a team can sustain that over a 55 game season. The problem is, I think Ange thinks we can, or that's what he wants. Imo it's not possible, not at this level. You have to manage your output, not just game to game but within games. I think Ange is a little hung up on the romanticism of the game., he wants it played out as he sees best, and how his dad wanted it played. The PL is a lot more ruthless, competitive, scientific than that, and it takes some navigating.

 

[Muttley]

I think Ange is a little hung up on the romanticism of the game., he wants it played out as he sees best, and how his dad wanted it played. The PL is a lot more ruthless, competitive, scientific than that, and it takes some navigating.

Love this comment. It talks really well to where lots of us believe is the shortcoming of the manager.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I'm going to this with a friend visiting from across the Irish Sea. I have to say i fear the worst...i remember that spat between Ange and Iraola in the game at WHL last season surrounding Veliz' injury and i think he'll be licking bhis lips and doubly motivated.


Oh boy...

Got out of jail big time given the way the game went and how much more dangerous they were compared to us.
Yes, Sarr should have equalised before they had the disallowed offside goal and also Bergval hit the post before their second but again two or three passes after we lose possession and we are cut open, almost every single time. Very little controlled possession play.
If i remember the equivalent game last season it's a sad reflection of how far we have regressed, never mind how much Iraola has improved them over the same timeframe.
Solanke feeding on even less scraps than the equivalent game last season....sigh..

Oh well, at least it wasn't the pummelling it easily could have been

 

[SpurMeUp]

We've had two years to develop coordination and structure. Even players not playing or back from injury and training with the group get to experience what is being coached.

Most presses are beaten by confident one touch passing with known positions of teammates.

The irony is...if you watch back to those legendary first ten games we had some mind blowing periods of play, untouchable football. And it wasn't just because teams hadn't worked us out yet, it's because we had bravery, swagger and oozed confidence. There was no thinking and certainly no overthinking.

Now I'm not sure if a team can sustain that over a 55 game season. The problem is, I think Ange thinks we can, or that's what he wants. Imo it's not possible, not at this level. You have to manage your output, not just game to game but within games. I think Ange is a little hung up on the romanticism of the game., he wants it played out as he sees best, and how his dad wanted it played. The PL is a lot more ruthless, competitive, scientific than that, and it takes some navigating.

That is the tantalising thing: if we get it right it is a system that can prosper. But the ‘operating window’ is small.

I go back to the analogy of a stripped out racing car. Lotus race cars under Colin Chapman were famous for pushing the limits of weight savings. All the components were stretch to the limit to save weight. Initially the car broke, and it was dangerous for drivers, but eventually it paid off. They refined components to be strong enough. And managed to get a lighter car than anyone else, and win championships.

So I’m all for building something exceptional. But I don’t think Ange has the talent or time to achieve what he wants to in this league playing twice a week.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We've had two years to develop coordination and structure. Even players not playing or back from injury and training with the group get to experience what is being coached.

Most presses are beaten by confident one touch passing with known positions of teammates.

The irony is...if you watch back to those legendary first ten games we had some mind blowing periods of play, untouchable football. And it wasn't just because teams hadn't worked us out yet, it's because we had bravery, swagger and oozed confidence. There was no thinking and certainly no overthinking.

Now I'm not sure if a team can sustain that over a 55 game season. The problem is, I think Ange thinks we can, or that's what he wants. Imo it's not possible, not at this level. You have to manage your output, not just game to game but within games. I think Ange is a little hung up on the romanticism of the game., he wants it played out as he sees best, and how his dad wanted it played. The PL is a lot more ruthless, competitive, scientific than that, and it takes some navigating.

We don’t play one touch passing anymore
Their second goal yesterday was a thing of beauty because it was just that

 

[Bedfordspurs]

A great example of why too many touches doesnt help was when Maddison lost it for their shot that hit the post
He took 7 touches and lost it (he had passes but didn’t take any)
They took 6 to hit the post and move the ball from their half
Look at the penalty and no play took more than two touches other than Kepa on son

 

[glorygloryeze]

We don’t play one touch passing anymore
Their second goal yesterday was a thing of beauty because it was just that

We certainly try to play one-touch passing..but execution is often all wrong and many times when we attempt to a bit of time getting the ball under more control might help us to not be so open to counter-attacks