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***OMT - Spurs vs Liverpool***

DubaiSpur said:
"They can't be remembered over the next, maybe, eighteen months... two years as a team that didn't win anything. "

"I've seen it too often with Spurs - they fail to turn up in big games, maybe going back twenty years. Is it a belief thing? A mentality thing, ingrained in the club? And if that doesn't change, they're going to become like Leeds - oh, that fantastic Leeds, got to the semi-finals of the European Cup, so what? They didn't win anything."

"Kane, Alli, they've got some fantastic players. But at the end of their time at Tottenham - maybe ten years, maybe two years, I don't know - but at the end of this sort of run or era of Tottenham, you want to be able to say 'I've won that'. Show us your medals, what have you've got? And if they don't win big games, they're never gonna get there. I'm not questioning them for not winning the league or the Champions League, but go win an FA Cup. Go win a Europa League. They should be the best team in the Europa League, the players they've got now. That's what they have to do... but if they don't win the big games, or change these stats, they'll never win anything." - Carragher

*Win. Something.*

If the players are shrinking away at big grounds, winning something will get that out of their system and give them belief. If the team needs something to signify their potential, a trophy will provide it. And if the players want to mark their time here with medals, those cups are where they need to start.

Win a cup. Any cup, but win a cup. It's been a thunderous, constant refrain from me and many others here and elsewhere - win the trophies, because they still matter in a myriad of ways. They matter to the fans, and they evidently matter to the players, judging by what Carragher is saying.

But no, some people would prefer we surrendered the trophies at the first sign of any inconvenience to our league schedule, and throw games under the lights at White Hart Lane to the likes of Wycombe f*cking Wanderers if it meant a clearer fixture list for the run-in.

A**-backwards approach.
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Agree with most of this, Dubai - most of all, love your passion.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
Modric THFC said:
Watch the actual thing starting around 17 minutes


Carragher and Neville both are excellent here.
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Cheers! I've never actually gotten to see him talk in a studio, have always just read the very bland SkySports articles, where he doesn't exactly come across as a class A analysist. Enjoyed the video though, they seem to be spot on. :)
 
Rorschach said:
The Leeds comparison is not really helpful. The scenarios are not comparable for many reasons. However the thrust of his point is right. Win something and it will make you a better team. It will instill a sense of belief in the players and everyone else at the club.
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Worked for Leicester.
Or Swansea
Or Wigan

I would love us to win a cup, but it's not going to turn us into winners.
I would rather we didn't win something for two years if it allowed to build a squad who will move us to the next level and become serial winners.
Poch doesn't seem to be here for the short term and one cup win. It looks to me like he is trying to build a squad who will peak together either next season or more likely the season after.
 
Mikey10 said:
Agree with most of this, Dubai - most of all, love your passion.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
Click to expand...


Cheers, mate. ;)

glasgowspur said:
Worked for Leicester.
Or Swansea
Or Wigan
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On the other hand, look how *well* Arsenal are looking after steadily building a squad capable of becoming 'serial winners' for ten long years. Where are their league titles, their 'next level' results?

Ironically, their FA Cups are the only successes they could muster after ten years of trying the 'f*ck the Cups, 4th place now' approach towards greater successes. ;)
 
Modric THFC said:
Watch the actual thing starting around 17 minutes


Carragher and Neville both are excellent here.
Click to expand...

I noticed in the analysis, for the goals, the danger came with our team high, Wanyama ahead of the ball on one of them. Go to 20 mins, where Carragher says it's embarrassing with the walking pace of our play in defence -- but actually, for that phase of play, we had 7 players behind the ball, Liverpool passed it across the pitch and nothing came of it. That is the obvious lesson for playing away to Liverpool. Men behind the ball, defend deep and have a base to launch simple counter attacks from (ball over the top, Son v Lucas, yes please).
 
the dza said:
I noticed in the analysis, for the goals, the danger came with our team high, Wanyama ahead of the ball on one of them. Go to 20 mins, where Carragher says it's embarrassing with the walking pace of our play in defence -- but actually, for that phase of play, we had 7 players behind the ball, Liverpool passed it across the pitch and nothing came of it. That is the obvious lesson for playing away to Liverpool. Men behind the ball, defend deep and have a base to launch simple counter attacks from (ball over the top, Son v Lucas, yes please).
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It worked for Plymouth Argyle and Wolves, can't see why we didn't employ the same tactics,apart from Poch and his coaching staff we all knew Liverpool would come out at 100mph especially with Mane back up to speed,they be all over us like a rash.

When e play a top 6 side Son,Ali, and Eriksen can't play in the same side our left and right backs get exposed far too much.we should have contained them for the first half then waited till they got frustrated or tired out then brought on our attacking players for the last half hour or so.
 
DubaiSpur said:
"

*Win. Something.*

If the players are shrinking away at big grounds, winning something will get that out of their system and give them belief. If the team needs something to signify their potential, a trophy will provide it. And if the players want to mark their time here with medals, those cups are where they need to start.

Win a cup. Any cup, but win a cup. It's been a thunderous, constant refrain from me and many others here and elsewhere - win the trophies, because they still matter in a myriad of ways. They matter to the fans, and they evidently matter to the players, judging by what Carragher is saying.

But no, some people would prefer we surrendered the trophies at the first sign of any inconvenience to our league schedule, and throw games under the lights at White Hart Lane to the likes of Wycombe f*cking Wanderers if it meant a clearer fixture list for the run-in.

A**-backwards approach.
Click to expand...


This is spot on, once we start to win things our players will really start to believe in themselves.
 
glasgowspur said:
Worked for Leicester.
Or Swansea
Or Wigan

I would love us to win a cup, but it's not going to turn us into winners.
I would rather we didn't win something for two years if it allowed to build a squad who will move us to the next level and become serial winners.
Poch doesn't seem to be here for the short term and one cup win. It looks to me like he is trying to build a squad who will peak together either next season or more likely the season after.
Click to expand...
In fairness Spurs are a club on a completely different level to Swansea or Wigan or even Leicester. We are a far bigger club than those three and considering our finances, fan base, etc we don’t win our fair share. Those three mentioned are not coming from the same base we are and so the comparisons don’t really stack up IMO.

Developing the club into a self-sustaining winning machine is a laudable aspiration but surely that is something that is not mutually exclusive from winning a few trophies in the here and now. In fact is that not the point – win a few trophies as soon as you can?

So I have to disagree with you. By definition winning trophies does turn you into winners. It obviously is not the only thing for sustained success but it is an important ingredient IMO. I think Poch is doing a great job on this, I do see a change in us, but other times I see on the pitch a Spurs side that doesn’t believe in itself enough. Creating a winning ethos at the club is the one of the next steps for Spurs and to my mind there is only one real way to do that (if you don't throw the GDP of a small country at it) – win something.

There are no guarantees that we will develop into a team that will compete regularly for the PL or CL so let’s take our victories where we can I say.
 
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I just dont think that winning the first trophy is going to turn the team into commited winners.
Some will settle, some will get distracted and some greedy and lazy.
Not saying any of our players definitely would but you can't be sure.
To my mind you either have that or you don't.
We have a core of determined players who are going to give everything to make the best of themselves, but I would think the odds are that there's at least one or two that aren't.
Some of what I see is poch giving players the chance to prove they have that desire, if they don't they will be gone.
The replacements, should the need arise, may not even be as technically superior but will have the winning mentality that can make the difference.
 
Rorschach said:
In fairness Spurs are a club on a completely different level to Swansea or Wigan or even Leicester. We are a far bigger club than those three and considering our finances, fan base, etc we don’t win our fair share. Those three mentioned are not coming from the same base we are and so the comparisons don’t really stack up IMO.

Developing the club into a self-sustaining winning machine is a laudable aspiration but surely that is something that is not mutually exclusive from winning a few trophies in the here and now. In fact is that not the point – win a few trophies as soon as you can?

So I have to disagree with you. By definition winning trophies does turn you into winners. It obviously is not the only thing for sustained success but it is an important ingredient IMO. I think Poch is doing a great job on this, I do see a change in us, but other times I see on the pitch a Spurs side that doesn’t believe in itself enough. Creating a winning ethos at the club is the one of the next steps for Spurs and to my mind there is only one real way to do that (if you don't throw the GDP of a small country at it) – win something.

There are no guarantees that we will develop into a team that will compete regularly for the PL or CL so let’s take our victories where we can I say.
Click to expand...

Great summing up and one i agree with 100%.
 
Modric THFC said:
Watch the actual thing starting around 17 minutes


Carragher and Neville both are excellent here.
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing. Was a good watch, and they're bang on. Our mentality needs to improve in the big games, amd we didnt help ourselves one bit.

First point I want to make is that if we beat Sunderland away, Bournemouth away and Leicester at home, we are already looking at 9 points better off. Those games are as key as these big ones.
But in terms of winning something, Carragher is bang on, we need to beat big sides. As soon as we come up against a big side in the Champions League or Europa League we have folded and been taught a lesson.
It's not that we don't have the quality to beat those teams, look at our overall record since Poch has come in

v Arsenal:
w1, d4, l0

v City:
w3 d1 l2

v Chelsea:
w2 d2 l2

v United:
w1 d1 l3

v Liverpool:
w0 d3 l3

A few of those defeats came at the beginning of Poch's reign.

Last year:
Arsenal 1-1 Spurs
City 1-2 Spurs
Chelsea 2-2 Spurs
United 1-0 Spurs
Liverpool 1-1 Spurs

This year we've not been good and need to improve but we have already shown we have been improving overall and at least it's a contest. The worry is the last two games v City away and Liverpool away.
Its all part of the evolution
 
SteveAWOL said:
Decided to try and forget about Saturday by watching highlights of our last league victory over Liverpool... just goes to show how much our squad has evolved since 2012 that only 3 players started both games... oh how we could've done with a devastatingly pacy wide attacker to Bale us out this time around though...

http://www.soccer-blogger.com/2012/...hts-2012-bale-freekick-og-lennon-goals-video/
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Indeed! A Bale or even a Mane is what we are missing. Sissoko could still offer some of that as can N'Koudou but having a real dangerously pacey forward is what I think would really allow us to hit people on the counter with devastating effect.
 
diego_maradona said:
Thanks for sharing. Was a good watch, and they're bang on. Our mentality needs to improve in the big games, amd we didnt help ourselves one bit.

First point I want to make is that if we beat Sunderland away, Bournemouth away and Leicester at home, we are already looking at 9 points better off. Those games are as key as these big ones.
But in terms of winning something, Carragher is bang on, we need to beat big sides. As soon as we come up against a big side in the Champions League or Europa League we have folded and been taught a lesson.
It's not that we don't have the quality to beat those teams, look at our overall record since Poch has come in

v Arsenal:
w1, d4, l0

v City:
w3 d1 l2

v Chelsea:
w2 d2 l2

v United:
w1 d1 l3

v Liverpool:
w0 d3 l3

A few of those defeats came at the beginning of Poch's reign.

Last year:
Arsenal 1-1 Spurs
City 1-2 Spurs
Chelsea 2-2 Spurs
United 1-0 Spurs
Liverpool 1-1 Spurs

This year we've not been good and need to improve but we have already shown we have been improving overall and at least it's a contest. The worry is the last two games v City away and Liverpool away.
Its all part of the evolution
Click to expand...

Just one point of clarity as I agree with what you have said, but it is beating the top sides away from home. We have shown that we can beat those top sides at our own place.
 
Rorschach said:
In fairness Spurs are a club on a completely different level to Swansea or Wigan or even Leicester. We are a far bigger club than those three and considering our finances, fan base, etc we don’t win our fair share. Those three mentioned are not coming from the same base we are and so the comparisons don’t really stack up IMO.

Developing the club into a self-sustaining winning machine is a laudable aspiration but surely that is something that is not mutually exclusive from winning a few trophies in the here and now. In fact is that not the point – win a few trophies as soon as you can?

So I have to disagree with you. By definition winning trophies does turn you into winners. It obviously is not the only thing for sustained success but it is an important ingredient IMO. I think Poch is doing a great job on this, I do see a change in us, but other times I see on the pitch a Spurs side that doesn’t believe in itself enough. Creating a winning ethos at the club is the one of the next steps for Spurs and to my mind there is only one real way to do that (if you don't throw the GDP of a small country at it) – win something.

There are no guarantees that we will develop into a team that will compete regularly for the PL or CL so let’s take our victories where we can I say.
Click to expand...

Good point, I think there is a difference between freak wins where they is an inevitable regression to the mean as those players know deep down they won't ever scale those heights again, and a club like ours knowing that the expectation is to win something and needing to take that final step to rid them of the mental block that's stopping them. I think once we get one, we will get more. Seriously hoping this is our year for the Europa. I think that would be great.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Good point, I think there is a difference between freak wins where they is an inevitable regression to the mean as those players know deep down they won't ever scale those heights again, and a club like ours knowing that the expectation is to win something and needing to take that final step to rid them of the mental block that's stopping them. I think once we get one, we will get more. Seriously hoping this is our year for the Europa. I think that would be great.
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That would be fantastic. A trophy to send the old girl off (WHL).

I see a clear split on this board as to what actually defines a successful club. So a question to the floor- in the last say decade say, who would say has been a more successful club, Arsenal or Sevilla FC?
 
Another possible contributory explanation for our poor record against the top clubs is the way those top teams so often seem to raise their game against us. Of course that is partly because they recognise that we are more of a threat nowadays but it seems also that they see us as upstarts that need to be kept very firmly in our place and out of their cosy cabal.
 
Gazzasrightboot said:
Just one point of clarity as I agree with what you have said, but it is beating the top sides away from home. We have shown that we can beat those top sides at our own place.
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Yes absolutely. I said before the game that the next step in our evolution is to go with the mentality of going to a place like Anfield believing we will win. We really did become shrinking violets.
 
glasgowspur said:
I just dont think that winning the first trophy is going to turn the team into commited winners.
Some will settle, some will get distracted and some greedy and lazy.
Not saying any of our players definitely would but you can't be sure.
To my mind you either have that or you don't.
We have a core of determined players who are going to give everything to make the best of themselves, but I would think the odds are that there's at least one or two that aren't.
Some of what I see is poch giving players the chance to prove they have that desire, if they don't they will be gone.
The replacements, should the need arise, may not even be as technically superior but will have the winning mentality that can make the difference.
Click to expand...
That reminds me of an interview with Sheringham I saw on TV a few years back. The question he was asked was who was the best player he had ever played with? Sheringham said without hesitation that it was Roy Keane, which threw the presenter a little. Sheringham qualified his response by describing Keane's will to win as something almost palpable. For Keane's teammates it was something that they either measured up to or withered away from, and that to me was the real secret to Utd's success. To leave the pitch defeated was not something that ever entered their minds.

This is the winning ethos we need to truly compete for a title. The belief that it is your right to win every single match irrespective of the opposition. I think we are getting there but still have a ways to go and that is why players like Lamela and Janssen (yep him) will be given more time than fans would expect. Lamela has turned around a Spurs career that was in a nosedive and that me shows his character. Janssen is having a very rough time of it in front of goal but never hides or fails to take responsibility.
 
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