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OMT: Everton vs Mighty Spurs

scaramanga said:
If we're playing well despite one of our players being a level or two below the rest, should we just ignore it and hope for the best?
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Well there's always a chance we're not seeing the contribution being made by that one player? And if we don't, we could maybe support the player and the manager regardless, so that whatever happens, we didn't affect the situation in a negative way?
 
LemonadeMoney said:
Well there's always a chance we're not seeing the contribution being made by that one player? And if we don't, we could maybe support the player and the manager regardless, so that whatever happens, we didn't affect the situation in a negative way?
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Is there a limit on "support regardless"?

What if we were to literally take a Sunday League player (instead of one who often does a decent impression of one) , at an age where there is no way he's ever going to get to the standard of a professional footballer? Do we just cheer them on and shrug every time they give the ball away? Or should we rightfully criticise the manager for picking a player who is significantly below the standard of the rest of the team in their ability.

The conditions this weekend were perfect for Sissoko to shine - in a position that apparently suits him, against a team leaving a good bit of space, in a team playing very well and very comfortable on the ball, against a team that were playing quite badly indeed. Yet in all of that he produces his best performance to date for us - which was at best on a par with the worst other Spurs player on the pitch, who was having an all-time stinker in his Spurs career.
 
scaramanga said:
Is there a limit on "support regardless"?

What if we were to literally take a Sunday League player (instead of one who often does a decent impression of one) , at an age where there is no way he's ever going to get to the standard of a professional footballer? Do we just cheer them on and shrug every time they give the ball away? Or should we rightfully criticise the manager for picking a player who is significantly below the standard of the rest of the team in their ability.

The conditions this weekend were perfect for Sissoko to shine - in a position that apparently suits him, against a team leaving a good bit of space, in a team playing very well and very comfortable on the ball, against a team that were playing quite badly indeed. Yet in all of that he produces his best performance to date for us - which was at best on a par with the worst other Spurs player on the pitch, who was having an all-time stinker in his Spurs career.
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Support the shirt, not the player.
If a manager is picking a donkey as long as that donkey I'd doing his best I'll support him.
It's the managers fault he's out there, not his.

I don't think sissoko is a donkey btw, just not sure he's good enough for us.
 
scaramanga said:
Is there a limit on "support regardless"?

What if we were to literally take a Sunday League player (instead of one who often does a decent impression of one) , at an age where there is no way he's ever going to get to the standard of a professional footballer? Do we just cheer them on and shrug every time they give the ball away? Or should we rightfully criticise the manager for picking a player who is significantly below the standard of the rest of the team in their ability.

The conditions this weekend were perfect for Sissoko to shine - in a position that apparently suits him, against a team leaving a good bit of space, in a team playing very well and very comfortable on the ball, against a team that were playing quite badly indeed. Yet in all of that he produces his best performance to date for us - which was at best on a par with the worst other Spurs player on the pitch, who was having an all-time stinker in his Spurs career.
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You're right, let's KILL HIM!!!
 
glasgowspur said:
Support the shirt, not the player.
If a manager is picking a donkey as long as that donkey I'd doing his best I'll support him.
It's the managers fault he's out there, not his.

I don't think sissoko is a donkey btw, just not sure he's good enough for us.
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LemonadeMoney said:
You're right, let's KILL HIM!!!
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But we should be criticising the manager for picking him though right? After all, a Sunday League player would be significantly less good at football than the rest of our team, less good than those on the bench and detrimental to our chances of winning matches (even if we're winning despite that player).
 
scaramanga said:
But we should be criticising the manager for picking him though right? After all, a Sunday League player would be significantly less good at football than the rest of our team, less good than those on the bench and detrimental to our chances of winning matches (even if we're winning despite that player).
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Yes, it's totally on the manager.
It's kind of difficult to have a go at poch though.
 
glasgowspur said:
Yes, it's totally on the manager.
It's kind of difficult to have a go at poch though.
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Not really. Everyone makes mistakes - even the very best in their fields.

In fact, it's those that are particularly good at what they do that often need their mistakes pointing out the most, as people tend to become "yes men" around them. Those that stay at the top of their game accept those mistakes and alter their future judgement on that basis.
 
scaramanga said:
My criticism isn't of Sissoko - he can't help his inability to control the ball.

The fault is with Levy and Poch for buying/selecting him. That's where my comment about picking a substandard player and hoping for the best lies - we should be doing better than that.
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That would be fair, but I still think Poch has a better feel for the players than us fans. If there's improvement, which there is, maybe we should reserve judgement until further down the road. And if it's a confidence thing with the player, maybe we should support instead of nitpick. Then 20 games into the season we can reassess and if criticism is due, by all means call him and Poch out. Especially if his selection has cost us games. So far it hasn't and the team is ticking quite nicely.
 
glasgowspur said:
Yes, it's totally on the manager.
It's kind of difficult to have a go at poch though.
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For signing him I think criticism is fair.

I thought starting him against Everton made sense. A good game for him, others needed rest before Dortmund and we're missing players through injury. Worked out well too.
 
LemonadeMoney said:
Straw man.
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Not at all.

The point I'm making is that if we all agree on the Sunday League example (and I assume we do), then gradually increase the ability of the player whilst still keeping it significantly below that of the rest of our team. Does anything along that line happen that changes the fact that playing him is a bad idea? I don't believe so.

LemonadeMoney said:
We're winning. Sissoko's runs were creating space for the rest of the team to operate - a positive contribution.
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Isn't that getting a little close to the "Ade is occupying defenders" argument? Or the "defenders know they've been in a game against Andy Carroll" one?
 
braineclipse said:
You say he's clearly improving, I disagree and think he's quite simply doing what he's always been doing. Thriving to some extent in game conditions that suit him, but still failing to deliver in terms of end product.

I see no real reason to think that this alleged improvement is reason to think that he will do well in game conditions he's struggled in before.

You say there are people who speak of him as if he put in a 3-4 performance. I also see those claiming he was as good as Davies (one of our best players, highlighted by Pochettino). I think there's a fairly normal distribution between those two extremes. I don't think he's being unfairly treated compared to how players like Davies, Vertonghen, Trippier, Lamela and others have been treated in the past.
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Fair enough, if you don't think people have gone in harder on Sissoko than Davies, JV, Trippier or Lamela, and with much more of a condescending tone to one of our own players, we don't have much more to discuss. It's pretty blatant in this thread and in the stands, but whatever.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I think Brain is right.

Had any of our midfielders put in that same performance it would have been a bad day at the office.

The fact is Sissoko has been awful to date, and his performance Saturday is being viewed in comparison to that - not his peers.

A 6 or 7/10 performance from Eriksen, Winks, Dier, Wanyama... is going to be way better than what Sissoko did at Everton.

Im delighted he has improved, but lets not get carried away and start dressing it up as something its not. I hope he continues to improve, I hope he proves to be a vital player for us this season, I would be absolutely delighted - but he only makes the bench when people are fit at this time.
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Sissoko was in no way clearly worse than anyone else on the pitch. Eriksen scored and did some good stuff, Sissoko did some good stuff. It was just a good performance among a well performing team. Dier wasn't that much better. Dele wasn't that much better. Not that they were worse, but they were part of a team that did good stuff, as Sissoko did. I'm absolutely comparing him to his peers on the day, not against his awful performances last year which no one would argue against. A Sissoko 8/10 would be much better than Dele 6/10, but he isn't there yet. No one is saying he is, but we're hopeful.
 
scaramanga said:
Not at all.

The point I'm making is that if we all agree on the Sunday League example (and I assume we do), then gradually increase the ability of the player whilst still keeping it significantly below that of the rest of our team. Does anything along that line happen that changes the fact that playing him is a bad idea? I don't believe so.


Isn't that getting a little close to the "Ade is occupying defenders" argument? Or the "defenders know they've been in a game against Andy Carroll" one?
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Sounds like physicality isn't rated by you as an actual quality a Spurs player can have.
 
scaramanga said:
The point I'm making is that if we all agree on the Sunday League example (and I assume we do), then gradually increase the ability of the player whilst still keeping it significantly below that of the rest of our team. Does anything along that line happen that changes the fact that playing him is a bad idea? I don't believe so.
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Brilliant.
 
scaramanga said:
Not really, no. Much weaker players are very good at keeping the ball by using their brains.

It's certainly of less value than controlling a ball and the ability to not spaz it off one's own leg to a defender.
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Sissoko can pass the ball to his team mates though.
 
as good as we were on saturday, everton were absolutely shocking, I've never seen them defend as poorly, looking at out record against them, we really are a bogey team for them, long may it continue!!
 
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