Old Guard/Bad Eggs - POLL ADDED

[Bedfordspurs]

They allign because thos Burnley players are going to buy in fully to that system as they do not have the talent to play otherwise. Play any other way and they will just get relegated (they still might).

At Spurs we don't have to play the low block and counter that Jose is choosing to use. We might now be seeing the players turn away from a system that is not typical for players and clubs of our stature.

I'm personally not anti counter football but I do think Mourinho has implemented it incorrectly. Fergies Manchester United pretty much always played on the counter and their football was breathtaking, Jose's own Real Madrid were initially fantastic to watch and they lived for the transition. At Spurs though it has been too defensive, too reactionary and as I told you some weeks ago far too one dimensional which I think you can see now has lessened it's effectiveness.

But those tactics did beat Liverpool
Even being defensive it worked
Mainly because they didn’t make the mistakes we made

 

[Bishop]

But those tactics did beat Liverpool
Even being defensive it worked
Mainly because they didn’t make the mistakes we made

You really didn't address anything I said but ok.

Every tactic has won a game before it's a bit of a redundant point. Do those tactics suit the players you already have? Do those tactics get the best out of the players you already have? Have you adjusted those tactics to best suit the players you?

The answer to those questions is yes for Burnley and let's be honest no for Spurs.

 

[Legohamster]

A lot of focus on the manager atm and whilst that's fair a lot of chat also seems to be about how the old guard have let down another manager - so i thought I'd put my question in it's own thread...

If this was the squad Pochettino inherited first time around - who are the old guard that he bombs out and what would the team/squad look like after.

My first XI minus some of the problem players...

Lloris
Aurier Tangana Rodon Regulion
Skipp Hojberg
Ndombele
Bergwijn Kane Son
​

Gazza
One of Toby/Dier
Sanchez
Sissoko
Moura
Lo celso
Lamela
Bale

Can all go for various reasons

I don’t disagree on the line up either.

clear areas to up grade in it as well

 

[Bedfordspurs]

You really didn't address anything I said but ok.

Every tactic has won a game before it's a bit of a redundant point. Do those tactics suit the players you already have? Do those tactics get the best out of the players you already have? Have you adjusted those tactics to best suit the players you?

The answer to those questions is yes for Burnley and let's be honest no for Spurs.

but why not for us?
I mean we have won games that’s quite before when we haven’t given away soft goals
I mean that’s part of the key challenge in any tactic... it will work provided the players execute it correctly. We didn’t. We made mistakes.

 

[Bishop]

but why not for us?
I mean we have won games that’s quite before when we haven’t given away soft goals
I mean that’s part of the key challenge in any tactic... it will work provided the players execute it correctly. We didn’t. We made mistakes.

The execution is exactly the problem our players clearly aren't suited to performing in this way. With some slight adjustments we could maximise the system to best take advantage of our player attributes.

If we are going to sit in a low block and funnel the opposition outside leading to crosses into the box we need an aerially dominant CB to help clear the ball along with a commanding keeper who clears anything near him. We currently lack both of these.

We want to play tight and hit on the counter then we need good ball players deep and who can beat the press playing deep. Jose has not been selecting the players suited to this instead he's been picking Sissoko.

Every tactical approach has its failings. We don't have the same set of players that Burnley have, their mental standing and expectations are different. It's a bit like the classic those who have no talent try harder than those who have it easy. Burnley are the guys who have to try hard just to hit the minimum level.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The execution is exactly the problem our players clearly aren't suited to performing in this way. With some slight adjustments we could maximise the system to best take advantage of our player attributes.

If we are going to sit in a low block and funnel the opposition outside leading to crosses into the box we need an aerially dominant CB to help clear the ball along with a commanding keeper who clears anything near him. We currently lack both of these.

We want to play tight and hit on the counter then we need good ball players deep and who can beat the press playing deep. Jose has not been selecting the players suited to this instead he's been picking Sissoko.

Every tactical approach has its failings. We don't have the same set of players that Burnley have, their mental standing and expectations are different. It's a bit like the classic those who have no talent try harder than those who have it easy. Burnley are the guys who have to try hard just to hit the minimum level.

But their minimum level worked
Ours didn’t
Hence my issue
It’s about the level of work in any system

 

[Bishop]

But their minimum level worked
Ours didn’t
Hence my issue
It’s about the level of work in any system

All the work in the world isn't going to make Davies and Sissoko good WBs. All the work in the world isn't going to compensate for only having two midfielders against their three.

We don't need hard work, we need smart work and starting with essentially 6 defenders and 2 WBs who aren't wing backs and are unsuited to the role is not smart work.

I know you want to defend the manager but you must see he himself has created this problem. He selects a system that his players are unsuited too.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

All the work in the world isn't going to make Davies and Sissoko good WBs. All the work in the world isn't going to compensate for only having two midfielders against their three.

We don't need hard work, we need smart work and starting with essentially 6 defenders and 2 WBs who aren't wing backs and are unsuited to the role is not smart work.

I know you want to defend the manager but you must see he himself has created this problem. He selects a system that his players are unsuited too.

Hey I agree that sissoko and Davies aren’t good wing backs
They are a huge part of the issue as their just average players
Abs the tactics can’t help
But as I’ve said loads it’s the same players making the same mistakes as they have previous. That’s kinda stupid of them and maybe shows their uncoachable (assuming the coach sees them as repetitive issues)
I’m not defending the manager. I’m criticising the players. The system is more defensive yet we’re conceding goals that other defensive sides don’t do with apparently superior players.
I think the players we have in a lot of areas are bang average and did better than they could under peak Poch, hence why they died in the end. Now their just dead and need binning ASAP

 

[elltrev]

I think you guys are partly talking at cross purposes. I'd imagine most of us can agree with both of you - that Jose's tactics aren't working, and that some of our defenders aren't good enough.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think you guys are partly talking at cross purposes. I'd imagine most of us can agree with both of you - that Jose's tactics aren't working, and that some of our defenders aren't good enough.

That’s the issue
People seem to think these players are good enough and it’s the tactics
As I’ve said these players were failing badly for Poch under his reign. Their broken
So any tactics will probably be a struggle unless they can suddenly find some energy and form that that havent had since December 2018...

 

[elltrev]

That’s the issue
People seem to think these players are good enough and it’s the tactics
As I’ve said these players were failing badly for Poch under his reign. Their broken
So any tactics will probably be a struggle unless they can suddenly find some energy and form that that havent had since December 2018...

I'm not sure anyone is saying that the players are good enough? Saying that the tactics are ineffective doesn't automatically equate with saying that they're the only issue.

I guess the question is: which is the bigger issue? I'd say the tactics, but maybe that's just because I find them so fudging dull to watch.

 

[billyiddo]

I'm not sure anyone is saying that the players are good enough? Saying that the tactics are ineffective doesn't automatically equate with saying that they're the only issue.

I guess the question is: which is the bigger issue? I'd say the tactics, but maybe that's just because I find them so fudging dull to watch.

I say the tactics are the bigger problem too because I don't think we're getting the most out of what is available - if we were playing a way that suited what was at our disposal we'd be doing better, no doubt about it

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I'm not sure anyone is saying that the players are good enough? Saying that the tactics are ineffective doesn't automatically equate with saying that they're the only issue.

I guess the question is: which is the bigger issue? I'd say the tactics, but maybe that's just because I find them so fudging dull to watch.

But these tactics are exactly what beat pool for Burnley
We went top playing the defensive strategy
Now we can’t stop goals and can’t score either playing pretty much a 5 or 6 man defence
It’s double bubble
But .... the goals are really really weak goals to concede. They are very high XG goals as their ones you should score.
But because Jose is in charge of the tactics he gets the focus. He is paid £15m to come up with a solution.

 

[billyiddo]

Burnley beat Liverpool therefore our tactics aren't a problem


Right

 

[Bishop]

Burnley beat Liverpool therefore our tactics aren't a problem


Right

Felt like I was banging my head against a brick wall. [emoji1787]

We aren't Burnley and what Burnley did it didn't do is nothing to do with us.

Besides the obvious factor that Liverpool themselves are going to approach a game Vs Spurs differently than they do a game with Burnley.

 

[elltrev]

But these tactics are exactly what beat pool for Burnley
We went top playing the defensive strategy
Now we can’t stop goals and can’t score either playing pretty much a 5 or 6 man defence
It’s double bubble
But .... the goals are really really weak goals to concede. They are very high XG goals as their ones you should score.
But because Jose is in charge of the tactics he gets the focus. He is paid £15m to come up with a solution.

But you're looking at tiny sample sizes - either one game (Burnley vs Liverpool), or roughly 10 games (when we were top). Just because playing defensively can work for a few games, doesn't mean it can work as your primary approach for a whole season. We are currently 12th in the league in possession after 20 games - when do you think was the last time a team with that little possession finished in the top 4?

I totally agree that we're defending really badly, and that that's down to the players more than the manager. But we're also terrible going forward recently, and for me that's more down to the manager. Again, not mutually exclusive.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Felt like I was banging my head against a brick wall. [emoji1787]

We aren't Burnley and what Burnley did it didn't do is nothing to do with us.

Besides the obvious factor that Liverpool themselves are going to approach a game Vs Spurs differently than they do a game with Burnley.

Yeah
Pool see us as an easy touch
Have done done since I’ve been alive
They know their in a game vs Burnley

 

[Bedfordspurs]

But you're looking at tiny sample sizes - either one game (Burnley vs Liverpool), or roughly 10 games (when we were top). Just because playing defensively can work for a few games, doesn't mean it can work as your primary approach for a whole season. We are currently 12th in the league in possession after 20 games - when do you think was the last time a team with that little possession finished in the top 4?

I totally agree that we're defending really badly, and that that's down to the players more than the manager. But we're also terrible going forward recently, and for me that's more down to the manager. Again, not mutually exclusive.

So is possession the key?
I mean there is a lot of evidence that possession is the least useful data their is as it doesn’t add context to where you have the ball. We used to be be masters of the half way line ball
The key has to be score more concede less and that’s where it’s gone wrong
We had a good win vs Sheffield. Tried to mirror it vs pool and got undone by shocking defending coupled with no attacking plan ince Kane went off
We limped into a game vs Brighton and we’re painfully lazy all over the place again conceding a woefully bad goal. And we created nothing
The problems in attack have to be about the approach we take. That’s Jose’s challenge to fix
The defensive issues he has tried varying options and the only way they look competent is playing more and more defender which knocks on the other end of the pitch. It’s a problem as until we have players who can defend we’re screwed
We can of course just go for it like we did when he started here ... it’s more fun for sure

 

[elltrev]

So is possession the key?

I'm not saying possession is the key - just that it is an important piece of the puzzle. Specifically, I think a) a team that is not comfortable or effective in possession is not going to score enough goals (i.e. being sometimes good on the counter because of two world class players is not enough), and b) a team that is making so many individual defensive mistakes cannot afford to have a gameplan based on conceding possession to the opposition.

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post.

Though the only other thing I would say is that I don't think we can assume for certain that Jose holds zero percent of the blame for our defensive mistakes. (Of course we also can't assume that he does - it's very hard to know, without seeing what goes on in training and the dressing room).

 

[fernadez]

Genuine question

Seeing the quality of our defending as individuals, how to people tactically expect us to play a more expensive game, and remain solid at the back?

Even if we go back to a possession based system, what happens when we lose the ball?

I'm not defending Jose, but I can see why he plays so defensively, cause we can't defend whether the game is 0-0 or we're 3-0 up. It's a stretch to say players at downing tools because of his tactics as when we were playing attacking football we were still fudging up, and no team is gonna keep scoring goals like we were or players like Kane and Son were.

It's a bit disingenuous to label the problems now on the manager, but then say that previously under Poch it was the players/we needed a refresh etc when the majority of the same players are here, especially in defence

The only players I can look at recently and say they're putting it in (regardless of their quality) are Hojberg, Ndombele and Berwijn who essentially new players and Jose players.